Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

That is interesting Ms D.

I know the Langside area pretty well, and yes, locals would not be happy if they had a house of multiple occupancy in their midst.
Langside has always affected a slight air of gentility.

I've just finished Stoddart's "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and on the last two pages is an interesting little snippet.

It has been often reported, although I can't recall any of the sources at the moment, that when John McInnes committed suicide he left a cryptic note, that some police sources thought alluded to the murders.

Stoddart says "One such story appeared in the Sunday Post of September 9 1979 concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide, leaving a cryptic note which some police linked to the murders of ten years before." (My Emphasis)
(page 137-138)

John McInnes died on 30th April 1980, so the suicide note left behind by a Lanarkshire man in 1979 was clearly not him.
So who the hell was it?

Bearing in mind that Stoddart had, apparently, had several meetings with Joe Beattie while writing the book, is there a possibility that if Beattie was engaged in a
cover-up of some sort regarding John McInnes, he threw Stoddart a titbit of information intimating that the Police had harboured some suspicions about a Lanarkshire man who killed himself in 1979?

With this snippet of information in the public domain, it could seem to weaken the case against McInnes, because he died a year later.

The more I seem to learn about this case, the less I seem to know.

Interesting stuff, Barn!

That just adds yet another layer of mystery!

My first thought on reading your post was to wonder whether Stoddart could have got the year of the Sunday Post article wrong.

Or could Beattie have told him the wrong year to muddy the waters a bit (although I would have thought that Stoddart would have checked the source before publishing)?

I suppose Lanarkshire is a relatively large county, so it's possible that there was another suspect who committed suicide a year earlier, so on reflection it's perhaps not as crazy a coincidence as it first appears.

Intriguing!

[barnflatwyngarde]

I'm never sure exactly how much value is to be placed on local lore, but I always find old stories from people who were there fascinating nonetheless.

With that in mind, I was out yesterday with a bunch of friends from my old work, a couple of whom had been alive at the time of the BJ murders and I recalled from conversations years ago that one had a connection to the first murder scene.

My old boss remembers the case well.

He had been a regular at the dancing in those days (although never at the Barrowlands) and as a tall guy of around the right age and appearance had been questioned briefly and issued with one of those "I am not Bible John!" cards.

We discussed the term "agnostic" in relation to football, and he was 100% certain that he had never heard it used in that context (and he's a Partick Thistle fan, so the epitome of an Old Firm agnostic!!).

Secondly another of my friends had, it turned out moved into 15 Cathkin Road (which backs directly into Carmichael Lane) a couple of years after the murder of Pat Docker.

Her neighbours had warned her not to go into the lane at night and apparently it was a well-known "lovers lane" at the time.

She said she caught an eyeful when looking out back on several occasions whilst living there!

Interestingly she told me that at the time of the murder (and later while she lived there, the house next door (no. 17) was a kind of HMO made up of lots of small bedsits and there was a feeling among the neighbours that there were some dodgy goings on there.

TBH that may just be a bit of neighbourhood snobbery as it's quite a well-to-do area.

The guy who owned the HMO came from what she described as "the same small Lanarkshire town where the suspect that they exhumed in the 90's came from".

She said Strathaven, and when I said that McInnes was from Stonehouse, she wasn't sure exactly which of the two it had been.

The two are in very close proximity anyway.

When the McInnes story broke in the 90's she had wondered if there was any connection between McInnes and the guy who owned the (allegedly dodgy) HMO.

Make of that what you will!

That is interesting Ms D.

I know the Langside area pretty well, and yes, locals would not be happy if they had a house of multiple occupancy in their midst.
Langside has always affected a slight air of gentility.

I've just finished Stoddart's "Bible John: Search for a Sadist", and on the last two pages is an interesting little snippet.

It has been often reported, although I can't recall any of the sources at the moment, that when John McInnes committed suicide he left a cryptic note, that some police sources thought alluded to the murders.

Stoddart says "One such story appeared in the Sunday Post of September 9 1979 concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide, leaving a cryptic note which some police linked to the murders of ten years before." (My Emphasis)
(page 137-138)

John McInnes died on 30th April 1980, so the suicide note left behind by a Lanarkshire man in 1979 was clearly not him.
So who the hell was it?

Bearing in mind that Stoddart had, apparently, had several meetings with Joe Beattie while writing the book, is there a possibility that if Beattie was engaged in a
cover-up of some sort regarding John McInnes, he threw Stoddart a titbit of information intimating that the Police had harboured some suspicions about a Lanarkshire man who killed himself in 1979?

With this snippet of information in the public domain, it could seem to weaken the case against McInnes, because he died a year later.

The more I seem to learn about this case, the less I seem to know.

[Ms Diddles]

I'm never sure exactly how much value is to be placed on local lore, but I always find old stories from people who were there fascinating nonetheless.

With that in mind, I was out yesterday with a bunch of friends from my old work, a couple of whom had been alive at the time of the BJ murders and I recalled from conversations years ago that one had a connection to the first murder scene.

My old boss remembers the case well.

He had been a regular at the dancing in those days (although never at the Barrowlands) and as a tall guy of around the right age and appearance had been questioned briefly and issued with one of those "I am not Bible John!" cards.

We discussed the term "agnostic" in relation to football, and he was 100% certain that he had never heard it used in that context (and he's a Partick Thistle fan, so the epitome of an Old Firm agnostic!!).

Secondly another of my friends had, it turned out moved into 15 Cathkin Road (which backs directly into Carmichael Lane) a couple of years after the murder of Pat Docker.

Her neighbours had warned her not to go into the lane at night and apparently it was a well-known "lovers lane" at the time.

She said she caught an eyeful when looking out back on several occasions whilst living there!

Interestingly she told me that at the time of the murder (and later while she lived there, the house next door (no. 17) was a kind of HMO made up of lots of small bedsits and there was a feeling among the neighbours that there were some dodgy goings on there.

TBH that may just be a bit of neighbourhood snobbery as it's quite a well-to-do area.

The guy who owned the HMO came from what she described as "the same small Lanarkshire town where the suspect that they exhumed in the 90's came from".

She said Strathaven, and when I said that McInnes was from Stonehouse, she wasn't sure exactly which of the two it had been.

The two are in very close proximity anyway.

When the McInnes story broke in the 90's she had wondered if there was any connection between McInnes and the guy who owned the (allegedly dodgy) HMO.

Make of that what you will!

[Ms Diddles]

Well talk about coincidences (when do they become more than that) Just started to listen again to the Podcast. (episode the Witness) and quite near the beginning Audrey states that the interview takes place in 1996 at Jeans home in the village of Dreghorn which if I have got it right is about 3 miles from the centre of Irvine. Maybe I have the wrong Dreghorn. But it looks to be virtually part of Irvine.

I have to say, and I know people are different but if my sister had been murdered then the last place I would want to set up home is where the main suspect BJ said in the taxi that that is where he took family holidays. Well each to their own. But I have mentioned it just in case it means something more.

Helens handbag turns up fairly close to Irvine, John McInnes' is actually called Irvine and BJ said he had his holidays there. Now Jean who was in the taxi lives just outside Irvine in 1996. I would imagine I am looking for something that isn't there. Probably just a nice area.

NW

Hi NW!

That will be the correct (if, I always think, rather unromantically named) Dreghorn!

To be honest it was so common for Glasgow folk to have a holiday on the Ayrshire coast, that I don't personally see anything significant in all of this.

Saltcoats and Ayr were likely the most popular destinations, but Irvine, Troon and Maybole would have been fair game too, presumably right up to Largs.

It could be that Jean just wanted to retire to the seaside as many folk do.

It's fascinating nonetheless, but in my humble opinion a red herring!

[New Waterloo]

Well talk about coincidences (when do they become more than that) Just started to listen again to the Podcast. (episode the Witness) and quite near the beginning Audrey states that the interview takes place in 1996 at Jeans home in the village of Dreghorn which if I have got it right is about 3 miles from the centre of Irvine. Maybe I have the wrong Dreghorn. But it looks to be virtually part of Irvine.

I have to say, and I know people are different but if my sister had been murdered then the last place I would want to set up home is where the main suspect BJ said in the taxi that that is where he took family holidays. Well each to their own. But I have mentioned it just in case it means something more.

Helens handbag turns up fairly close to Irvine, John McInnes' is actually called Irvine and BJ said he had his holidays there. Now Jean who was in the taxi lives just outside Irvine in 1996. I would imagine I am looking for something that isn't there. Probably just a nice area.

NW

[New Waterloo]

Thanks for that info Cobalt does paint a picture in my mind. Old holidays at a set time. In Norwich where I live there were dozens of shoe factories right up to the 1990s. All gone. They would shut down for factory fortnight. In August I believe. Trains to Great Yarmouth would be packed in the 1950s and 1960s.

if BJ had said we used to have holidays in Saltcoats then I think it wouldnt be that significant (armed with your info) but Irvine sounds like somewhere you would holiday with a relative. Apparently McInnes had relatives in Ayshire through his mothers side!! (podcast) Although it doesnt mention Irvine but some village.

NW

[cobalt]

Before cheap Spanish holidays took off in the 1960s it was common for Glaswegians to head for the west coast; Blackpool was overwhelmed with Glasgow visitors in the 1960s during what was known as the Glasgow Fair: a two week holiday at the end of July. I would imagine Saltcoats was pretty popular back in the day but don't know if that would apply to Irvine.

The handbag belonging to Helen Puttock that was found on Saltocats beach is a very curious affair. We don't know when she lost it, so I will guess it was when she was on her Glasgow Fair holiday in late July. It must have been easily identified as hers by personal belongings inside so could have been returned to her during the following 3 months. Yet apparently it lay undiscovered until about 3 days after she was murdered, judging by the news article posted last week.

Women rarely 'lose' handbags I would have thought: they are almost umbilically attached to them. They are more likely to be stolen?

[New Waterloo]

I think Herlock has made an important observation about the town of Irvine and nearby Saltcoats in relation to McInnes being BJ.

If we could establish that the McInnes family did holiday in Irvine then this fact along is extremely significant as the chances of the man in the taxi (BJ) saying to Helen and overheard by Jean that his family used to holiday in Irvine too much of a coincidence. Jeannie could not have known that a prime suspect (McInnes) actually had family holidays there.

The clincher is that Saltcoats is the nearby holiday resort whereas Irvine is a port town. In other words having a holiday in Irvine would be more unusual as entertainment/lodging house were more abundant in Saltcoats.

Yes he may have seen Helen at Saltcoats but the connection is easier. Did the McInnes family have holidays at Irvine or Saltcoats?

Is there another witness who can confirm we they took their holidays?

NW

[cobalt]

Apologies. It seems that Moylan managed the Bairds store not in Hamilton but in Wishaw. The Wishaw store seems to have been more a furniture store than the more general purpose Hamilton three floor business.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A photo of Michael Moylan

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/wishaw-businessman-michael-moylan-passes-2560378

[Herlock Sholmes]

All I could find online was this old advert for Moylan's.

It mentions branches in Hamilton and Wishaw, but not Newarthill or Airdrie sadly.

Thanks for posting that. I’ve just Googled Moylan’s and the pic came up as a Facebook post totally unrelated to the murders. But… I post underneath it said this:

Irene Robertson
I went to the Barrowland at that time and remember the police taking in young men they picked up inside the hall.. One of the girls murdered was found near where I lived in Bridgeton.

[Ms Diddles]

All I could find online was this old advert for Moylan's.

It mentions branches in Hamilton and Wishaw, but not Newarthill or Airdrie sadly.

[Ms Diddles]

[cobalt]

''Former sheriff and director of judicial studies Charles Stoddart passed away yesterday at the age of 75. Born in Dunfermline and educated at Dunfermline High School, Mr Stoddart graduated in law from the University of Edinburgh.''

(HS): ''That background would imply a trustworthy source of information I’d have thought.''

As I shared both of these alma maters I beg to differ! And so would many others I'm sure! Stoddart was a few years older than me so our paths never crossed.

Moylan so far as I can judge managed the Bairds store in Hamilton. Bairds had a number of stores across the west of Scotland and the Hamilton one sold household appliances over three floors. Moylan personally owned a number of bars in the local area and a hotel in Airdrie which I think his family still operate after his death. His father had been a policeman back in Ireland so given this fact, and his commitment to the pub trade, I would imagine he placed some emphasis on good relations with the local constabulary.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
We know that Stoddart was close enough to Joe Beattie to allow him to take recordings of their conversations on the case, although how many conversations took place, and how many were recorded, we simply do not know.

We know this because Audrey Gillan includes a clip of a recording where Joe Beattie makes inappropriate comments about Helen Puttock, calling her "quite a good looking dish" and saying that she was a "very bad tempered girl." (My emphasis)

Stoddart graduated in law in 1969, at the age of 21, so he was certainly aware of the murders as they happened.
His book on the case was published in 1980, so he certainly approached the case as a youngish man.

With regard to the relevance of Newarthill and Airdrie to the case, my first thought was that perhaps Moylan's had other furniture stores in Lanarkshire.
I couldn't find anything that suggested that Moylan's had stores in those two places.

A tribute to Mickey Moylan published in the Daily Record of 2nd November 2011 makes the comment "He was best-known in Wishaw for running the Bairds furniture store and the Horse and Anchor pub." (My emphasis)

The Daily Record is a popular paper throughout Lanarkshire, and I think that if Moylan's had any connection with Newarthill or Airdrie, it would have been mentioned in the Daily Record article.

Hi Barn,

I recognise Wishaw as being where the snooker player John Higgins is from but that’s hardly helpful.

Do we know which branch McInnes worked at? I’ve never seen it mentioned.

Stoddart is an interesting source because he’s the closest we get to those that we’re investigating the case although we have to be cautious as we don’t know how trustworthy he was.

Is he still alive Barn?

Not if this is him…

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/charles-stoddart

The age ties up…aged 75 in 2023 means born in 1948 which made him 21 in 1969 when he graduated. That background would imply a trustworthy source of information I’d have thought.