Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I agree that it's strange.

The fact that they brought out the Big Guns implies that rightly or wrongly, they really thought they were onto something.

Could it have been something that the Moylans manager said in relation to McInnes that got their antennae pinging?

If so though, that would seem to contradict the idea that Mickey Moylan couldn't recall McInnes being mentioned.

It could have been something he said but you could also have been right about the description. So it might have been a case of…they find a Moylan’s card at the scene then they talk to various people at and find that McInnes is a dead ringer for the description given by Jean. Maybe someone tells them that he’d mentioned the Barrowland? Or that he’d expressed certain opinions about the married women that frequented the place. Any detective would have felt that they were on the right track.

To quote Cobalt though:

“That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

Even if he suggested an alibi, and even if it was backed up they would still have wanted Jean to see him. How could this have been avoided without causing huge suspicion? And if it did then Jean must have rejected him. Yet the CC detectives suggest that Jean might not have seen him. If so, it’s a cover-up.

[barnflatwyngarde]

That's a great (and extremely atmospheric) documentary, Barn.

I've never seen it before.

Thanks for posting.

I noticed among all the evidence files, there was one entitled "Hair Pieces".

Was there some speculation that BJ wore a wig?

I'm just curious as I'd never heard this before!

I have no idea why they would be interested in hair piece suppliers Ms D.

My understanding is that witnesses were consistent in their description of his hair colour and style.
They did interview lots of barbers re Bible John's hair style, so the "hair piece suppliers" thing will probably remain a mystery.

I also noticed a box file headed "John at Glasgow Night School".
Did they think that his erudition leaned toward him pursuing night classes, bearing mind that he told Jeannie and Helen that he was in full time employment?

So many things we just don't know, and a lot of what we do know doesn't quite make sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just ordered the Samson and Crow book Barn which I thought was unavailable for some reason. I’m not paying £65 for the Stoddart book though. I’ll wait til a cheaper copy becomes available.

[Ms Diddles]

Here is a link to a very interesting, if relatively brief at 25 minutes, documentary on Bible John.
What is particularly interesting that there are a few detectives who worked on the case talking about their experiences.

Also there is an interesting clip of Carmichael Lane, the scene of Pat Docker's murder, that shows that the body was located in a slight alcove next to a garage in the lane, this would give the killer a certain degree of privacy in which to commit the murder.

I think that this case requires lots of pulling together of little pieces of information wherever we can find them to try and understand it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1OFEq1nvV8&t=1s

That's a great (and extremely atmospheric) documentary, Barn.

I've never seen it before.

Thanks for posting.

I noticed among all the evidence files, there was one entitled "Hair Pieces".

Was there some speculation that BJ wore a wig?

I'm just curious as I'd never heard this before!

[cobalt]

So why did four top ranked detectives descend on Hamilton police station? If McInnes was a person of interest he could have been driven to Glasgow by local police to be interviewed in the lion's den, so to speak. A 30 minute car journey inside a police car would unnerve many and make them less resistant to questioning. That's pretty much standard police procedure I think.

As I wrote earlier, I imagine that a group of high profile detectives converging on a provincial police station would spark more rumours than if the suspect had been interviewed in Glasgow. So I can't see this as a low key approach to spare the feelings of Jimmy McInnes.

Was the Stonehouse/Hamilton area significant because the detectives believed they could seize blood stained clothing and some items linked to the victim, Helen Puttock? Perhaps, but that action could have been delegated to local police officers.

To me it looks like these senior detectives were confident they had their man and were anticipating the photo opportunity of a lifetime as they made 'the pinch.' Such glory was not to be snatched from them by a Detective Inspector out in 'the sticks.' However something or somebody- maybe an alibi witness; a perfectly clean suit; - put a spoke in that particular wheel.

That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

[Ms Diddles]

Nice photo's, and I see that you managed to capture a Glasgow puddle!

Ha! That's always easily done!

We managed a couple of pints outside Websters before the obligatory downpour though, so it's a win!

[Ms Diddles]

That makes sense Ms D but it still seems strange that those senior officers went to Stonehouse.

Yes, I agree that it's strange.

The fact that they brought out the Big Guns implies that rightly or wrongly, they really thought they were onto something.

Could it have been something that the Moylans manager said in relation to McInnes that got their antennae pinging?

If so though, that would seem to contradict the idea that Mickey Moylan couldn't recall McInnes being mentioned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh! I am terrible at posting pictures on here and couldn't manage to edit my last post to give a description of the photos.

You’re a damned sight better than I am.

1) The entrance to Kelvingrove Park at the end of Derby St (which is parallel to Gray St).

2) The fountain. Just because it's nice!

3) The Kelvin River walkway from which you can cut right under Kelvinbridge / Great Western Rd.

4) A modern development on the route just before you reach Melrose Gardens. If you zoom in at the top of the picture amid the tree branches, you can see the row of tenements which leads straight to Melrose Gdns. It occurred to me that before the modern buildings were there it may have been possible to stick with the river walkway and emerge right next to those tenements.

5) Melrose Gardens.

It's a really easy, direct, mainly flat route. We did it in around 30 mins but were sauntering and pausing to look at and discuss aspects of the route.

A fit young guy walking briskly could have done it in around 15 / 20 mins, no problem.

Thanks for posting these Ms D. It’s always good to put pictures to location names.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could it have perhaps been something as banal as the fact that McInnes fitted the physical description and perhaps was known to frequent the Barrowlands?

It might have taken them a couple of days to speak to the managers at Moylans to get a list of employees who fitted the bill.

That makes sense Ms D but it still seems strange that those senior officers went to Stonehouse.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Oh! I am terrible at posting pictures on here and couldn't manage to edit my last post to give a description of the photos.

1) The entrance to Kelvingrove Park at the end of Derby St (which is parallel to Gray St).

2) The fountain. Just because it's nice!

3) The Kelvin River walkway from which you can cut right under Kelvinbridge / Great Western Rd.

4) A modern development on the route just before you reach Melrose Gardens. If you zoom in at the top of the picture amid the tree branches, you can see the row of tenements which leads straight to Melrose Gdns. It occurred to me that before the modern buildings were there it may have been possible to stick with the river walkway and emerge right next to those tenements.

5) Melrose Gardens.

It's a really easy, direct, mainly flat route. We did it in around 30 mins but were sauntering and pausing to look at and discuss aspects of the route.

A fit young guy walking briskly could have done it in around 15 / 20 mins, no problem.

Nice photo's, and I see that you managed to capture a Glasgow puddle!

Re the time scales from Gray Street to Melrose Gardens, I think that your 15-20 minute estimate is spot on.

[Ms Diddles]

Oh! I am terrible at posting pictures on here and couldn't manage to edit my last post to give a description of the photos.

1) The entrance to Kelvingrove Park at the end of Derby St (which is parallel to Gray St).

2) The fountain. Just because it's nice!

3) The Kelvin River walkway from which you can cut right under Kelvinbridge / Great Western Rd.

4) A modern development on the route just before you reach Melrose Gardens. If you zoom in at the top of the picture amid the tree branches, you can see the row of tenements which leads straight to Melrose Gdns. It occurred to me that before the modern buildings were there it may have been possible to stick with the river walkway and emerge right next to those tenements.

5) Melrose Gardens.

It's a really easy, direct, mainly flat route. We did it in around 30 mins but were sauntering and pausing to look at and discuss aspects of the route.

A fit young guy walking briskly could have done it in around 15 / 20 mins, no problem.

[Ms Diddles]

I'm not claiming that this advances our knowledge in anyway, but yesterday I was kicking about in the West End and decided to explore the route which John Templeton could have taken IF indeed he was the dishevelled guy who got off the bus at Gray St and (as per my favoured theory!) cut through Kelvingrove Park to reach his home in Melrose Gardens.

I didn't really learn anything new, but it did confirm that as I suspected you could go from Gray St to Melrose Gardens purely through the park without hitting any roads or residential streets until the last minute or so of your journey.

For the non-Glasgow contingent:

[barnflatwyngarde]

Uggghhh!

It's unspeakably sad to think of poor Jemima breathing her last in such squalor, Barn.

Yeah Ms D, it is, as you say, unspeakably sad.

I always make a conscious effort to remember that we are discussing real people's lives.
Even when I'm taking notes I always write their names out in full, never just initials.

I am glad that the contributors to this little thread seem to be giving the three victims the dignity they deserved, unlike the seemingly casual misogynistic comments in the police notes relating to their sex lives.

[Ms Diddles]

I keep coming back in my thoughts to the question ‘why was McInnes arrested?’ I realise that it was due to the Moylan’s card of course but the card itself couldn’t have identified John Irvine McInnes. What I mean by that is that it couldn’t have had his name on it or else the police wouldn’t have taken 2 days to get to him. So there must have been something else.

Could it simply have been that only x amount of Moylan’s workers would have had a card to give out and so the police had to work their way through those people eliminating them one at a time before they got to McInnes? This doesn’t seem likely according the the company boss who could only recall a very small number of his staff being spoken too and if this was the case then they would surely have got to Stonehouse in much less than two days.

Or is it more like that there was another factor which, along with the card, pointed to McInnes? I think Cobalt recently mentioned the two Moylan’s workers Thomas Murphy and Leonard Smith who were at a Glasgow furniture show together before heading to Sloane’s then the Barrowland. I also wondered if these two (or one of them) had mentioned spotting McInnes there that night. But, according to the podcast these two were never ‘asked’ about McInnes. I don’t know if the cold case detectives talked to these two or whether they were simply going on the records of the time but it does appear that the McInnes name hadn’t come up. Mickey Moylan could recall McInnes’s name being mentioned either so it looks, with what we have, that these two Moylan’s workers hadn’t seen McInnes at the Barrowland or in any way pointed a finger at him.

So the cold case detectives believe that the card led the police to Stonehouse but it seems to me that it was unlikely to have been the card alone. It seems unlikely to have been physical evidence therefore it looks like someone said something. But who was it and what did they say?

Could it have perhaps been something as banal as the fact that McInnes fitted the physical description and perhaps was known to frequent the Barrowlands?

It might have taken them a couple of days to speak to the managers at Moylans to get a list of employees who fitted the bill.

[Ms Diddles]

inside shot of the derelict flat where Jemima MacDonald was murdered.

Uggghhh!

It's unspeakably sad to think of poor Jemima breathing her last in such squalor, Barn.