Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

For many years Joe Beattie had been friends with Dr Robert Brittain who was the Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist at the Douglas Inch Clinic in Glasgow.
Brittain was highly regarded in his field and he and Beattie often used to meet up to discusss cases informally, including that of Bible John.

Beattie suggested that Brittain might be interested in preparing a "word description" of the killer, Brittain agreed, and the result was a paper entitled "The Sadistic Murderer", which was published in "Medical Science and the Law" (October 1970, Volume 10, Issue 4, pp 198 - 207).

This paper is in effect a "profile" of the type of man who committed the killings.

Click on "Get" at the top of the attached link.

It makes for interesting reading.

https://libgen.li/ads.php?md5=8a7858d2c03c9d2e7592baa0c629bc22&downl oadname=10.1177/002580247001000402

Thanks for posting that Barn. One part that stood out was this:

He may feel himself to be an inferior being except as regards his offences. The planning or contemplation of these acts can make him feel superior to other men, someone special or god-like.


Might this describe how the seemingly mild-mannered John, to the surprise of Jeannie, suddenly and forcefully stood up to the club manager over the incident with the cigarette machine?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock!

I seem to remember reading that there was a lot of opposition to the exhumation from Stonehouse residents and a local MP.

It's seems such a waste to have subjected the community to all that upheaval and controversy for a result which ultimately takes us no further forward.

To me the above statement adds to Hanna's credibility.

You would expect whoever had been in the back of the taxi to have aged slightly.

The thing is, Jeannie sounds completely credible too and she didn't ID McInnes.

I wish we knew more about exactly when and in what circumstances Jeannie viewed McInnes to give us a fighting chance of assessing the likelihood that she was correct.

Absolutely. I keep meaning to have another look at the podcast transcript to try and understand why those detectives in the 90’s felt that McInnes might never have been seen by Jeannie? Although we see much that’s suspicious that could lead to accusations of cover up I just can’t see how all those senior officers could have charged over to Stonehouse like a Wild West posse, eventually tracking down the man that they were looking for, and then failing to put him in front of the star witness. It’s just not credible. Unless McInnes was just incredibly lucky and Jeannie just didn’t recognise him. Maybe the story about her being drunk had some truth in it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

I can't remember where I read or heard this, but wasn't it John Mcinnes sister they got a DNA sample off ?

Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl,

I had almost convinced myself that I’d read somewhere that the DNA sample had come from more than one family member but it looks like I’m wrong and you are right. All that I found from a quick search of my eBooks is this, from The Face Of Bible John:

The cold case review looked again at John McInnes and his sister was persuaded to give a DNA sample to the police. The family hoped that this would finally exclude McInnes from the enquiry, but instead, it put him firmly in the frame. The sample from the sister was said to be an ‘80% match’ with DNA extracted from the semen found on Helen Puttock’s clothing, making it seem virtually certain that McInnes was the murderer.

From memory I think that she was called Etta?

I have to add that, as often happens in this case, the writer Steve MacGregor provides no source for this.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Yes, the police took family DNA samples before the exhumation but I think that I’m right in saying that it’s never been stated which family members were used. So they had to have had some serious evidence to convince the Procurator Fiscal to allow an exhumation…which is never a popular option especially when the person in question’s mother has been buried above him. So it was actually a double exhumation. These things are never done lightly.

A good point about his wife to add to some of his strange behaviour.

I agree that the double ID has to at least give weight to the case against McInnes. I think it’s also worth restating that the photograph shown to Hanna and the bouncer was taken in the mid 70’s after he’d been arrested for fraud. Hanna made a specific point about the man in the photo looking a bit older than when he’d seen him in his taxi.

Hi Herlock

I can't remember where I read or heard this, but wasn't it John Mcinnes sister they got a DNA sample off ?

Regards Darryl

[Ms Diddles]

Yes, the police took family DNA samples before the exhumation but I think that I’m right in saying that it’s never been stated which family members were used. So they had to have had some serious evidence to convince the Procurator Fiscal to allow an exhumation…which is never a popular option especially when the person in question’s mother has been buried above him. So it was actually a double exhumation. These things are never done lightly.

A good point about his wife to add to some of his strange behaviour.

I agree that the double ID has to at least give weight to the case against McInnes. I think it’s also worth restating that the photograph shown to Hanna and the bouncer was taken in the mid 70’s after he’d been arrested for fraud. Hanna made a specific point about the man in the photo looking a bit older than when he’d seen him in his taxi.

Thanks Herlock!

I seem to remember reading that there was a lot of opposition to the exhumation from Stonehouse residents and a local MP.

It's seems such a waste to have subjected the community to all that upheaval and controversy for a result which ultimately takes us no further forward.

To me the above statement adds to Hanna's credibility.

You would expect whoever had been in the back of the taxi to have aged slightly.

The thing is, Jeannie sounds completely credible too and she didn't ID McInnes.

I wish we knew more about exactly when and in what circumstances Jeannie viewed McInnes to give us a fighting chance of assessing the likelihood that she was correct.

[barnflatwyngarde]

For many years Joe Beattie had been friends with Dr Robert Brittain who was the Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist at the Douglas Inch Clinic in Glasgow.
Brittain was highly regarded in his field and he and Beattie often used to meet up to discusss cases informally, including that of Bible John.

Beattie suggested that Brittain might be interested in preparing a "word description" of the killer, Brittain agreed, and the result was a paper entitled "The Sadistic Murderer", which was published in "Medical Science and the Law" (October 1970, Volume 10, Issue 4, pp 198 - 207).

This paper is in effect a "profile" of the type of man who committed the killings.

Click on "Get" at the top of the attached link.

It makes for interesting reading.

https://libgen.li/ads.php?md5=8a7858d2c03c9d2e7592baa0c629bc22&downloadname=10.1177/002580247001000402

[Herlock Sholmes]

My memory is appalling, so please humour me here;

Did police take DNA samples from McInnes's family prior to the exhumation (presumably to make sure they weren't barking up the wrong tree, so to speak)?

I had thought they just dug him up and compared DNA with the sample from Helen Puttock's clothing, but I've likely forgotten the details here!

It's purely anecdotal but you could add the supposition that McInnes's wife was apparently terrified of her husband to your pro list.

I personally find it quite damning that the bouncer identified McInnes.

In my experience doormen, bar staff and security staff often have phenomenal and very accurate recollection when it comes to remembering punters who've caused trouble.

Unless the bouncer was new or agency (or just a rubbish bouncer!), I'd give their ID some weight.

Yes, the police took family DNA samples before the exhumation but I think that I’m right in saying that it’s never been stated which family members were used. So they had to have had some serious evidence to convince the Procurator Fiscal to allow an exhumation…which is never a popular option especially when the person in question’s mother has been buried above him. So it was actually a double exhumation. These things are never done lightly.

A good point about his wife to add to some of his strange behaviour.

I agree that the double ID has to at least give weight to the case against McInnes. I think it’s also worth restating that the photograph shown to Hanna and the bouncer was taken in the mid 70’s after he’d been arrested for fraud. Hanna made a specific point about the man in the photo looking a bit older than when he’d seen him in his taxi.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A curiosity that I just found online. It was in a post on a Forum called Threetowners.net and was made on November 23rd 2021.

Basically it’s a quote from the Glasgow Herald, 4th November, 1969:

BIBLE QUOTING MAN SOUGHT BY MURDER HUNT POLICE

A handbag belonging to Mrs Puttock has been found on the beach at Saltcoats. She had lost it some time before her death, however, and it does not feature in the murder case.

I just checked on the map and Saltcoats is a coastal town 53 minutes drive from Glasgow. On the same map I also noticed something interesting. Saltcoats is only 17 minutes drive from Irvine which is where Bible John told Helen his family took their holidays.

[Ms Diddles]

To recap on McInnes (from my own point of view)

Pro

Clearly a troubled man.
Religious upbringing.
Resembled the Patterson portrait.
ID’d by Alexander Hanna and one of the Barrowland bouncers as Helen Puttock’s ‘John.’
The Moylan’s card found at the scene of HP’s murder.
As the card didn’t immediately point specifically to McInnes it’s reasonable to assume other evidence existed (possibly witness)
A close enough familial DNA link to justify an exhumation.
A group of very senior officers headed to Stonehouse and straight to Sandy McInnes’ house.
Might we conclude that as Jeannie mentioned ‘John’s’ teeth, that the description was at least close to McInnes’(from those that knew him)?

Con

No ID from Jeannie.
No conclusive DNA match due to poor samples.

…

Its certainly not ‘throw away the key’ time but for me, as it stands, McInnes has to be a strong suspect.

My memory is appalling, so please humour me here;

Did police take DNA samples from McInnes's family prior to the exhumation (presumably to make sure they weren't barking up the wrong tree, so to speak)?

I had thought they just dug him up and compared DNA with the sample from Helen Puttock's clothing, but I've likely forgotten the details here!

It's purely anecdotal but you could add the supposition that McInnes's wife was apparently terrified of her husband to your pro list.

I personally find it quite damning that the bouncer identified McInnes.

In my experience doormen, bar staff and security staff often have phenomenal and very accurate recollection when it comes to remembering punters who've caused trouble.

Unless the bouncer was new or agency (or just a rubbish bouncer!), I'd give their ID some weight.

[Herlock Sholmes]

To recap on McInnes (from my own point of view)

Pro

Clearly a troubled man.
Religious upbringing.
Resembled the Patterson portrait.
ID’d by Alexander Hanna and one of the Barrowland bouncers as Helen Puttock’s ‘John.’
The Moylan’s card found at the scene of HP’s murder.
As the card didn’t immediately point specifically to McInnes it’s reasonable to assume other evidence existed (possibly witness)
A close enough familial DNA link to justify an exhumation.
A group of very senior officers headed to Stonehouse and straight to Sandy McInnes’ house.
Might we conclude that as Jeannie mentioned ‘John’s’ teeth, that the description was at least close to McInnes’(from those that knew him)?

Con

No ID from Jeannie.
No conclusive DNA match due to poor samples.

…

Its certainly not ‘throw away the key’ time but for me, as it stands, McInnes has to be a strong suspect.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The sentence that I quoted from page 106 is the penultimate in the chapter; the inal one being: “But it wasn’t enough to finally name Scotland’s most notorious and elusive killer.

This is concerning events in 1996 as the paragraph begins with: “The Lord Advocate issued a statement on July 4th, 1996, which concluded that forensic tests had failed to link McInnes to the semen stain found on Helen Puttock’s body. The tests on the bitemark were also inconclusive, said the Lord Advocate.”

‘Pinpointed’ means nothing if it just comes from a writer who doesn’t add sources or more detail. It would be interesting to know what they based this on though.

[cobalt]

''P106 - The police had submitted circumstantial evidence to the Procurator Fiscal claiming that McInnes could be pinpointed at key times during the night of Helen’s murder.''

When? 1969? Or 1996? Big difference.

When were these 'key points' though? And what the hell does 'pinpointed' mean?' It sounds like waffle to me. The lack of progress since confirms my suspicions.

Where the hell actually was McInnes? On a late bus back to Stonehouse? (highly unlikely) On a way to doss down at some relative in central Glasgow where he had a key for entrance? Just about possible but also unlikely.

If they could not establish where McInnes was, why on earth was he dismissed as a suspect?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Concerning whether John Mcinnes drove a car or not , in this article it says he drove a green Ford Cortina . The article seems to be taken mainly from a book, entitled Bible John Hunt for a killer, [ which I have not read ].

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20221211/282441353130498

Hope this helps Darryl

Cheers Darryl. I got the Crow and Sansom book and read it very recently and so I have no excuse for not answering the question as to whether McInnes could drive or not as it should have been fresher in my mind. I just checked parts of my notes on the book:

P52 - McInnes owned a green Ford Cortina
P63 - Stories that McInnes skipped sales meetings to go to the Barrowland and inappropriate behaviour when they ran a care home.
P78 - Letter to DCI Brownlie from a mystery woman from the North of England
P99 - Interesting coincidence pointed out. HP’s sanitary towel was under her armpit and McInnes killed himself by slicing a main artery under his own armpit
P106 - The police had submitted circumstantial evidence to the Procurator Fiscal claiming that McInnes could be pinpointed at key times during the night of Helen’s murder….

As you can see…it’s actually the first point that I noted.

The two cars seen at the scene were a White Ford Consul and a Morris 100 Traveller so not McInnes’ Green Cortina which goes against my suggestion that he might have decided against using his car for the second and third murders if it had been seen at the scene of the first. That said, we don’t know when McInnes bought his prized Cortina?

[Ms Diddles]

Concerning whether John Mcinnes drove a car or not , in this article it says he drove a green Ford Cortina . The article seems to be taken mainly from a book, entitled Bible John Hunt for a killer, [ which I have not read ].

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20221211/282441353130498

Hope this helps Darryl

Nice find Darryl,

I feel like I have read that article at some point but missed the info about the car.

It would make sense for a young man from Stonehouse to have a car.

In my experience people from rural areas are much more likely to hold a driving licence than people from cities with abundant public transport options.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Concerning whether John Mcinnes drove a car or not , in this article it says he drove a green Ford Cortina . The article seems to be taken mainly from a book, entitled Bible John Hunt for a killer, [ which I have not read ].

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20221211/282441353130498

Hope this helps Darryl

Interesting stuff Darryl, thanks for posting.

The article has a coy, knowing air about it, the reference to an attempted suicide in the village shop is mentioned with no telling detail whatsoever.
Anything new that we can find out about the case, John McInnes and John Templeton is to be welcomed.