Bible John (General Discussion)

[New Waterloo]

Been listening to Jean (well the actor) on the Pod cast again. There is a bit of a contradiction. She states that when she heard of Helens murder she immediately thought it could have been Helens husband. Saying something like she didn't ' think BJ would be capable or that sort (cant remember exact words). This seems a bit odd as she had left Helen in the Taxi with BJ.

The contradiction is that although she says BJ was very quiet and a 'mammie's boy' he had a very vocal and heated argument with the manager of the club over the cigarette machine and that the manager was a very tough individual but BJ strongly confronted him and somewhat belittled him. (only a short time before the taxi ride)

In the Taxi Jean says BJ was quiet and had to be encouraged to say anything. Perhaps while he was in the taxi he was planning the murder. Thinking it through.

I wonder if he thought killing the victims close to their homes distances the crime from the Barrowlands in some sort of naïve thinking that the police would not make the Barrowlands connection. Sounds stupid but feasible. It is a lottery though, as his style (if it is one ) would mean he could have ended up miles and miles from his own home address.

Sorry all if my posts are a bit disjointed but I find it hard to be methodical and the whole thing seems odd

Thinking about the reef knot (was that Helens murder) Some seem to suggest its a difficult knot. Many use this knot without realizing it. My father was in the Navy and explained to me 'left over right, right over left. There is a problem using this, as once the knot is complete you cannot tighten it any further as far as I recall. Tricky if its not tight enough to say strangle someone. I would imagine the killer did the left over right bit. pulled it tight until the deed was done then locked the knot with the right over left.

Just thoughts again

NW

[cobalt]

I've read that the police were unable to locate any witnesses that remembered seeing Pat Docker returning home by bus. But there was the problem of knowing where Pat Docker would have boarded a bus or hailed a taxi since the police originally believed she had been dancing at The Majestic ballroom, not the Barrowland.

Whatever, her killer was obviously heading somewhere after the crime and it would be helpful if we knew where that was likely to be.

[New Waterloo]

I do agree Cobalt that BJ having a car doesn't seem to fit and sort of disrupts the similarity between Pat and Helens murders but in the case of Pat Docker if we assume that her murderer met her in Barrowlands and just didn't come across her near her home, then they must have travelled home somehow, a night bus perhaps or taxi. I don't think there is much evidence of how they travelled. After the murder surely witnesses, taxi drivers, bus drivers would have reported something.

Perhaps they did and statements exist somewhere and I am just not aware

NW

[cobalt]

NW,

The possible Castlemilk link to the Pat Docker murder caught my eye as well. I don't believe the killer had a car since he could have 'tried it on' inside there instead of halfway up a lane. He certainly seemed to be heading in a southerly direction when depositing the handbag (and probably the clothing) and Castlemilk was around 2 miles (?) away to the south east (?)

Whoever BJ was he had to lie down and sleep somewhere in the city of Glasgow after the crime. You can't go knocking up friends of relatives at around 2am so he must have either lived in the city or had a key to an apartment/garage lock up somewhere.

[cobalt]

Croiset, the self-styled Dutch clairvoyant, also offered in 1970 his thoughts on the case of missing Dumfries teenager Pat McAdam. She had disappeared in 1967 but it is not clear whether the Dumfries and Galloway police approached him or whether he was encouraged to offer his wisdom by a third party. True to form Croiset's revelations were couched in suitably vague language revolving around 'water' and 'a bridge.' Since the police had established her having disappeared in a small rural area this was no great breakthrough, and Croiset's conclusion- that the girl's body had been put in a river and washed out to sea- was what the police already surmised in any case. He did- from his home in Utrecht- sketch a farm building he thought was significant and such a building was located near the suspected place of the crime. But a similar farm building could probably have been found anywhere from the Russian steppes to the Solway Firth.

Croiset had already drawn a previous blank with the heart breaking case of the missing Beaumont children in Adelaide in 1966. I think the Australian police were not responsible for inviting his musings but listened just the same. I expect Croiset's insight into the BJ Case ('running water' was a regular feature of his visions) was also unsolicited but that Joe Beattie felt he had nothing to lose by listening. Since Croiset had an uncanny knack of confirming lines of enquiry already being undertaken by police, then I do not think it is fair to assume the Govan ferry crossing lead originated with Croiset. From what we know, it seems the ferry crossing captain was questioned very soon after the Helen Puttock murder: not in 1970 when Croiset levered himself into the case. I doubt that Joe Beattie had much time for psychics.

Why was McInnes swiftly dropped as a suspect after the 'A Team' swooped on Hamilton police station? We are still in the dark but I agree that a solid alibi (or an apparently solid alibi) must have been provided for him. But that shouldn't have meant an end to police interest in him since they were already linking other crimes to the Helen Puttock murder.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Two other people who worked at Moylans were interviewed as part of the police enquires [ according to the podcast ]. Apparently they both frequented the Barrowlands . But Jimmy Mcinnes evidently said that the ticket was a false clue or didn't exist or words to that effect.

What I am thinking is a ticket/card was found near Helen's body so at the time the police rightly investigated it . But Jimmy Mcinnes, in my opinion was dismissing it [ in his own mind ], as just being near the body , and anybody could have dropped it, sort of thing and nothing but a red herring. Joe Beattie may have come to the same conclusion

Pure speculation here but John Mcinnes may have been given an alibi when interviewed by the police off his wife or maybe off, say his Mother who would be Jimmy Mcinnes Auntie. Jimmy Mcinnes may have backed her up by saying words to the effect that she is an upstanding christian who wouldn't lie. That would certainly give some explanation why he wouldn't want to discuss or entertain his cousins guilt, if indeed John Mcinnes was guilty.

Its also possible John Mcinnes didn't have overlapping front teeth . Didn't Joe Beattie make great stock out of this clue ?

In the podcast I am sure Helen's sister said she only ever took part in one proper identity parade . Most of the time it was just viewing people on the street etc. Sometimes without the person even knowing. Could she have looked at John Mcinnes from an unmarked police car a few days later after the police went to Stonehouse [ she did that many, I believe that she could easily forget who was who and where it happened ], as he was going to work at Moylans say ? And dismissed him. The police had so many suspects I believe if any of the above is true they would have swiftly moved on [ manpower etc ] and any notes may have gone missing.

Just a few thoughts Darryl

Hi Darryl,

Always good to hear your thoughts. Yes, at least two other Moylan’s workers were questioned and both, after attending a furniture exhibition, ended up at the Barrowland that night so it’s possible that they added some information which, tied to the card, sent the police to Stonehouse. It’s no great stretch to suggest that they might have seen their colleague McInnes that night.

Jimmy McInnes certainly claimed that the card was made up evidence but it’s difficult to see who would do such a thing? It sounds like a desperate attempt to deflect attention from John Irvine McInnes to me; whether he was guilty or not. Marcello Mega claims to have been told about the card by more than one source but he never actually saw it himself.

The police could hardly have done more to make themselves look suspicious and underhand in this case. A company card is found at a crime scene which added to some as yet unknown evidence got a team of high ranking detectives flying over to Stonehouse where their first port of call was John Irvine McInnes’ brother’s house. They then took a suspect to Hamilton Police Station for questioning and then….nothing. The guy ceases to exist as far as the investigation is concerned. Not a mention. And then Jimmy McInnes, who claimed that his only work on the case was to man the phones once (which we know was untrue) not only edits a witness (Mr Palka) from the records but finds the only taxi in the world with no prints. He then follows two officers from the re-investigation team. Then we have McInnes’ family members being DNA checked to find a close enough match the semen sample to persuade the Procurator Fiscal to authorise an exhumation. And it was said by the Detective that the PF had said that if McInnes had been alive he’d have issued an arrest warrant.

At this stage I believe that it’s very possible, if not likely, that John Irvine McInnes was Bible John. The problem is….he might not have been.

[Ms Diddles]

Absolutely Ms D!

We now know that there was not one piece of evidence to support the theory that the killer was heading south of the river.

Unless there were other (credible) reasons for it, that Beattie didn't want to disclose to Stoddart for whatever reason so used the psychic's theory as cover?!

I guess I'm just struggling with the notion that such an intelligent, experienced and hard-bitten senior police officer bought into the ramblings of a crank on such an important and high profile case!

I'm finding it a bit hard to comprehend!

[New Waterloo]

I have just been examining google maps again (get ready for errors)

It seems to me that if somebody was traveling from from Carmichael place he could travel along Cartvale Road (keeping North of White Cart Water) onto Spean Street which takes you right by the Clarkston Road Bridge (in fact the road running just North of the river).

Throw bag in river (not go over bridge) onto Old Castle Road. Heading to, would you believe the Castlemilk area!

Depends where you are going in Castlemilk but I think its a similar route if walking.

I think the important bit here is that if Barnflats bridge ID is correct which I trust is, then the handbag being dumped in the river from a road leading generally towards the home area of Castlemilk John, interesting.

Although I have assumed a route taken. The bag dumping along that route strengthens the idea a bit I suppose. What do you think.

Again struggling with a map picture. I will learn I promise.

Don't know what this tells us to be honest but since reading this I have been a bit intrigued by the fact that the sisters both met men in Barrowlands called John called John. Or am I just creating another Red Herring.



NW

[Ms Diddles]

Two other people who worked at Moylans were interviewed as part of the police enquires [ according to the podcast ]. Apparently they both frequented the Barrowlands . But Jimmy Mcinnes evidently said that the ticket was a false clue or didn't exist or words to that effect.

What I am thinking is a ticket/card was found near Helen's body so at the time the police rightly investigated it . But Jimmy Mcinnes, in my opinion was dismissing it [ in his own mind ], as just being near the body , and anybody could have dropped it, sort of thing and nothing but a red herring. Joe Beattie may have come to the same conclusion

That's possible, Darryl!

Pure speculation here but John Mcinnes may have been given an alibi when interviewed by the police off his wife or maybe off, say his Mother who would be Jimmy Mcinnes Auntie. Jimmy Mcinnes may have backed her up by saying words to the effect that she is an upstanding christian who wouldn't lie. That would certainly give some explanation why he wouldn't want to discuss or entertain his cousins guilt, if indeed John Mcinnes was guilty.

Well, I'd like to think that Beattie would have dug a little deeper than an alibi provided by someone's nearest and dearest, but given these recent revelations re Beattie's credulity about the psychic, all bets are off!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Amazing!

Thanks Barn!

I had wondered about that when I saw that file.

Nice to have an answer!

The psychic thing is just bizarre!

I guess if the apparent fixation with a south side/ Govan based killer was based entirely on the word of a psychic, we are even more justified in our favouring of a west end culprit!

Absolutely Ms D!

We now know that there was not one piece of evidence to support the theory that the killer was heading south of the river.

[Ms Diddles]

Astonishing isn't it!

Stoddart had many conversations with Joe Beattie, and we know from Audrey Gillan's podcast that he taped them, so it would appear that Joe Beattie confirmed the Croiset/Govan Ferry connection.

I confess when I read that the "Govan Ferry" aspect of the case came about because of the intervention of a psychic, my jaw hit the floor.

I had to read it several times to make sure that I was reading it right.

By the way MS D, I remember you querying why one of the boxes in the original case files was headed "Wig Makers".

On page 85 of "Bible John:Search for a Sadist", Stoddart says that police considered that the neatness of the killer's hair may have been a wig, "so all hair piece suppliers in Glasgow were visited and shown the picture. But as expected, it was to no avail". (My emphasis)

Amazing!

Thanks Barn!

I had wondered about that when I saw that file.

Nice to have an answer!

The psychic thing is just bizarre!

I guess if the apparent fixation with a south side/ Govan based killer was based entirely on the word of a psychic, we are even more justified in our favouring of a west end culprit!

[barnflatwyngarde]

On page 93 of "Bible John; Search for a Sadist", Stoddart writes that Jeannie "viewed over 300 identification parades and never saw anyone who fitted the bill." (my emphasis)

This figure can only have come from Joe Beattie.

What is not known, is whether Joe Beattie is including in this figure, the "informal" occasions when Jeannie was asked to look at an individual, like the time that she was taken to a factory at clocking off time and asked if anyone coming throught the gates was the killer.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Surely there must have been more to it than the mere word of a psychic?!

I understand that by 1970 they were desperate and clutching at straws, but Beattie didn't seem to be the type to buy into psychics (or fairies at the bottom of the garden)!!

Perhaps the psychics "prediction" merely reinforced a theory that the police were following at the time.

Or maybe Beattie was losing the plot a little.

Curiouser and curiouser!

Astonishing isn't it!

Stoddart had many conversations with Joe Beattie, and we know from Audrey Gillan's podcast that he taped them, so it would appear that Joe Beattie confirmed the Croiset/Govan Ferry connection.

I confess when I read that the "Govan Ferry" aspect of the case came about because of the intervention of a psychic, my jaw hit the floor.

I had to read it several times to make sure that I was reading it right.

By the way MS D, I remember you querying why one of the boxes in the original case files was headed "Wig Makers".

On page 85 of "Bible John:Search for a Sadist", Stoddart says that police considered that the neatness of the killer's hair may have been a wig, "so all hair piece suppliers in Glasgow were visited and shown the picture. But as expected, it was to no avail". (My emphasis)

[Darryl Kenyon]

Two other people who worked at Moylans were interviewed as part of the police enquires [ according to the podcast ]. Apparently they both frequented the Barrowlands . But Jimmy Mcinnes evidently said that the ticket was a false clue or didn't exist or words to that effect.

What I am thinking is a ticket/card was found near Helen's body so at the time the police rightly investigated it . But Jimmy Mcinnes, in my opinion was dismissing it [ in his own mind ], as just being near the body , and anybody could have dropped it, sort of thing and nothing but a red herring. Joe Beattie may have come to the same conclusion

Pure speculation here but John Mcinnes may have been given an alibi when interviewed by the police off his wife or maybe off, say his Mother who would be Jimmy Mcinnes Auntie. Jimmy Mcinnes may have backed her up by saying words to the effect that she is an upstanding christian who wouldn't lie. That would certainly give some explanation why he wouldn't want to discuss or entertain his cousins guilt, if indeed John Mcinnes was guilty.

Its also possible John Mcinnes didn't have overlapping front teeth . Didn't Joe Beattie make great stock out of this clue ?

In the podcast I am sure Helen's sister said she only ever took part in one proper identity parade . Most of the time it was just viewing people on the street etc. Sometimes without the person even knowing. Could she have looked at John Mcinnes from an unmarked police car a few days later after the police went to Stonehouse [ she did that many, I believe that she could easily forget who was who and where it happened ], as he was going to work at Moylans say ? And dismissed him. The police had so many suspects I believe if any of the above is true they would have swiftly moved on [ manpower etc ] and any notes may have gone missing.

Just a few thoughts Darryl

[Ms Diddles]

Shades of Robert Lees. I wonder how a senior police officer would be treated today if he/she had enlisted the help of a ‘psychic’ (or to use their proper title ‘charlatan.’)?

It's quite jarring isn't it?

It sort of makes sense in the London of 1888 with the general fascination with the spiritualist movement, but 1969 Glasgow seems like a very different kettle if fish!