Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Thought I'd jump in to say the new Bible John book is FINALLY available here in the states, so I bought the Kindle version and began reading it last night. Had to tear myself away to go to bed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I am also re-reading this book now in preparation for attending the author's talk in June (many thanks for blagging me in, Barn! ).

I'd be really interested to know your thoughts when you've read it too!

[Ms Diddles]

Does this cast doubt on the famous/infamous drawing of the Bible John suspect by Paterson ? Link - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...trait-24553715

Did Paterson subconsciously lead Jean on with certain features because it was how he drew etc ?
Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the case can make sense of it but the figure [ Simon ], in his earlier painting does seem to bear a striking likeness . Its almost as if Paterson has aged the boy from his previous work .

Regards Darryl

Interesting article, Darryl!

To my eye the two people depicted in the portraits don't look that similar aside from their red hair and pale skin.

I think the similarities are perhaps accentuated by Paterson's technique and use of colour, but the features are quite different.

Out of curiosity I checked out some more of his work and found a couple of other portraits.

They are all quite distinct, so I don't get the impression that he was one of those artists who just paint the same person over and over again.

(Gainsborough, I'm talking to you!!!).

Of course this is just my entirely subjective opinion.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Barn. I only know about it now from reading the book the last two days. Here in the states, Bible John is unknown. He's appeared in a couple of anthology books I own. I'm not sure any of the books on Bible John have ever been published in the states. If so, they haven't come my way. Bavin-Mizzi's book will be the first full-length treatment I've read.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thought I'd jump in to say the new Bible John book is FINALLY available here in the states, so I bought the Kindle version and began reading it last night. Had to tear myself away to go to bed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,
I would be genuinely interested to know what you make of Jill Bavin-Mizzi's book.

A fabulous podcast on the Bible John case was put out by Audrey Gillan.
It contains lots of fascinating, and new, facts about the case.

You may already be aware of it, If not I attach a link below.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p0d3f8jl

[Tom_Wescott]

Thought I'd jump in to say the new Bible John book is FINALLY available here in the states, so I bought the Kindle version and began reading it last night. Had to tear myself away to go to bed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Darryl,

It’s difficult to see why George Puttock thinks that the earlier portrait proves that the one done from Jean’s description isn’t valid. There are some similarities but I think the pose can accentuate that. I can’t see the police getting a portrait done without Jean’s seal of approval. They were desperate to catch the killer after all.

He says that they placed too much reliance on Jean but they really had little choice. They would have tried to locate Castlemilk John but he never came forward. He left them earlier to catch a bus but he’d have seen ‘John.’ It’s possible that he was married and had told his wife that he was out for a pint with his mates at not at a singles night at Barrowlands. Either that or he just didn’t want to get involved.

During the Cold Case investigation the police found that the taxi driver had been shown a photograph of John Irvine McInness and ID’d it as the ‘John’ in his taxi with Jean and Helen. It’s a head-scratcher of a case Darryl. And now we have a new suspect.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Does this cast doubt on the famous/infamous drawing of the Bible John suspect by Paterson ? Link - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...trait-24553715

Was Jean Langford even there when the picture was drawn, or did he draw from her testimony ? Did Paterson subconsciously lead Jean on with certain features because it was how he drew etc ?
Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the case can make sense of it but the figure [ Simon ], in his earlier painting does seem to bear a striking likeness . Its almost as if Paterson has aged the boy from his previous work .

Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just back from the gym, and as I slowly recover I decided to play around with AI.
I asked Grok who was the main suspect in the Bible John murders.
I was surprised when it said John Templeton.
Nothing definitive of course, but I found it interesting.

Does AI know something that we don’t Barn?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Just back from the gym, and as I slowly recover I decided to play around with AI.
I asked Grok who was the main suspect in the Bible John murders.
I was surprised when it said John Templeton.
Nothing definitive of course, but I found it interesting.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's strange that you say that!

A while ago I accessed an old Glasgow telephone directory and looked up how many Templeton's were listed.
It was a surprisingly low number, about 20 if I remember correctly.

So the police wouldn't have had a huge job tracking down anyone called Templeton, although I accept that there would be people called Templeton who didn't have a phone.

The only thing that I could think of was that the police dismissed the likelihood that the killer would give Helen and Jeannie his real name.
The police were armed with a great witness, Jeannie, and they had Lennox Paterson's photofit, which they thought was an excellent likeness, and probably thought that an arrest was imminent.

After about 5-6 months with no real progress, they were prepared to consider the possibility that perhaps the killer had in fact mistakenly given his real name.

Like so much in this case, it's another little enigma.

That’s a possibility Barn and as we just don’t know it’s difficult to make a judgement. But after two murders, and with the police desperate for an arrest would they really have dismissed the suggestion that the killer had possibly given his real name just because it doesn’t sound likely (which I agree, it doesn’t of course)? I’d have thought that they might have considered that maybe the killer had believed that Jeannie might not have heard him and it wouldn’t have mattered that Helen had. It’s impossible to draw any solid conclusions though. Another one for the unanswered questions box?

[cobalt]

That is a surprisingly low number for a recognisable Scottish name- one that traces its roots as far back as the Knights Templar. (I'll avoid the temptation to pursue a Free Masonic cover up here.) In 1969 every male Glaswegian by the age of 21 would have been on the electoral roll so tracking down Templetons, Emersons and Semples in the appropriate age range should have been a straight forward procedure for the police. Granted BJ, even if he had not set out intending to kill that evening, might still have used a false name: but never look a gift horse in the mouth as the saying goes. The name 'Templeton' seems a stronger possible lead than hairdressers, clairvoyants or Joe Beattie's gut instinct.

Beattie's gut instinct regarding the Barrowland Ballroom seems suspect to me as well. A loner prowling the dance hall is hardly an attractive prospect therefore a man, whatever his motives, is likely to 'team up' in a loose association with another bloke to make himself appear more presentable. To some extent this seems to have happened with Castlemilk John, though possibly they interacted after having 'clicked' with Helen and Jeannie. Assuming this was not BJ's first visit to the Barrowland then he must have had a few interactions with other men before moving in to ask a woman for a dance. And his dancing partners could not have been limited to those we now consider to be his victims. So there should be more close witnesses to a man answering his description than we appear to have.

Beattie claimed he met reluctance from Barrowland patrons if not quite a wall of silence. The implication was that married men and women on a night out 'on the pull' clammed up rather than help the enquiry. Maybe so, but what about the policy of publicly declaring BJ a bogeyman: did that perhaps discourage patrons of the Barrowland from connecting a casual chat they'd had with BJ to the monster being sought?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Does that seem a long time to you to find a Templeton? It does to me Barn.

It's strange that you say that!

A while ago I accessed an old Glasgow telephone directory and looked up how many Templeton's were listed.
It was a surprisingly low number, about 20 if I remember correctly.

So the police wouldn't have had a huge job tracking down anyone called Templeton, although I accept that there would be people called Templeton who didn't have a phone.

The only thing that I could think of was that the police dismissed the likelihood that the killer would give Helen and Jeannie his real name.
The police were armed with a great witness, Jeannie, and they had Lennox Paterson's photofit, which they thought was an excellent likeness, and probably thought that an arrest was imminent.

After about 5-6 months with no real progress, they were prepared to consider the possibility that perhaps the killer had in fact mistakenly given his real name.

Like so much in this case, it's another little enigma.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
According to John Templeton's wife June, the two detectives turned up approx' 6 months after Helen Puttock's murder.

That would put it around April/May 1970.

Does that seem a long time to you to find a Templeton? It does to me Barn.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn,

Do we know how soon after the murder the 2 officers turned up to interview him?

Hi Herlock,
According to John Templeton's wife June, the two detectives turned up approx' 6 months after Helen Puttock's murder.

That would put it around April/May 1970.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi cobalt,
John Templeton's wife June, understood that the 2 police officers turned up to interview him at home for two specific reasons.
The first was that he matched the name given by the killer to Helen Puttock and her sister Jeannie.
The second was that he had lived in the Scotstoun area but had had moved before Helen Puttock's murder.

Re the comment on the comparison between the photo of Templeton, I can't agree with you on this particular point.

Lennox Paterson's portrait/photofit of the killer, to my eyes, does look very similar.

Scruffs weren't allowed into the Barrowland, and while i'm not sure if there was a formal dress code, there are plenty of photos and videos of the period showing smart young men in suits, shirts and ties.

Hi Barn,

Do we know how soon after the murder the 2 officers turned up to interview him?