Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D,

What reason do you think the killer might have had for wanting to dump her clothes in the river? It certainly sounds physically possible.

Ha! I was so pleased with my revelation about how quiet and residential the streets were between Carmichael Place and the river that I failed to really consider why BJ would have done such a thing!

He was going to take them, then realised how cumbersome and / or incriminating they were and decided to dump them?

He was destroying evidence? I know DNA was in it's infancy, but he may have been worried about fingerprints or hair.

Yeah, I'm stretching here!!

To be fair, there are many aspects of this case which appear highly illogical, so I'm not sure we're looking at someone who was completely rational during the commission of their crimes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I agree that a car is a possibility for the first murder.

I seem to recall that there were two cars spotted in the area at what was thought to be the crucial time.

The couple who were in one car came forward and were cleared of any involvement.

The second car was never traced.

On Saturday I went off on one of my fact-finding missions and wandered around this (actually very lovely) part of town.

It's a very quiet, residential, genteel area and I doubt it will have changed that much since 1968.

It would I imagine, have been relatively easy to walk down the hill from Carmichael Lane to the River Cart carrying a bundle of clothes and not meet a soul at the time of night in question as long as you kept off the main roads and stuck to the residential streets.

I suppose what I'm saying is that either option is feasible!

It's strange that there are no reported sightings of Pat after she left the Barrowlands.

I'd have expected there to be some witnesses if she caught a taxi or bus (or took a long walk home for that matter).

I guess (as someone suggested earlier on this thread) perhaps that critical week that elapsed while the police were sniffing around the Majestic blew it for them.

Hi Ms D,

What reason do you think the killer might have had for wanting to dump her clothes in the river? It certainly sounds physically possible.

[Ms Diddles]

Like NW I also have difficulty with Darryl’s suggestion as to why the killer took the clothes though I have to say that it’s a clever suggestion and one that I certainly hadn’t considered before.

For me it would appear that the killer either had a bag with him or that he came in a vehicle. If he’d picked her up at Barrowland then I’d have though it unlikely that he’d have been carrying a bag with him. He might have offered her a lift home in a car though. This would have made it easier to get her undressed (she might have done this herself or at least she might have agreed to partially undress inside the car) leaving the killer to carry her body and dump it in the alleyway. Also there would have been less chance of being seen from someone’s bedroom window if he was u dressing her in the open. A car would also have made it much simpler to carry away the clothes. A man with no car or bag is unlikely to have wanted to bump into a patrolling Police Constable with an armful of women’s clothes. Two cars were seen and Elphinstone Dalgleish asked the public for information. I still think it at least possible that the killers car type might have been mentioned which discouraged him from using it again.

It’s a tricky one and I’d certainly like to hear more suggestions on this because I’m certainly not claiming that mine is a done deal. Maybe he just hid the clothes under an overcoat? I don’t know. A car appears is the obvious answer. Is it the right one though?

We haven’t got a complete list of her clothing but we do know that as well as a ‘yellow crocheted mini dress’ she was wearing a ‘grey duffle coat with a blue collar.’ A duffle coat on its own is quite a bulky item.

Hi Herlock,

I agree that a car is a possibility for the first murder.

I seem to recall that there were two cars spotted in the area at what was thought to be the crucial time.

The couple who were in one car came forward and were cleared of any involvement.

The second car was never traced.

On Saturday I went off on one of my fact-finding missions and wandered around this (actually very lovely) part of town.

It's a very quiet, residential, genteel area and I doubt it will have changed that much since 1968.

It would I imagine, have been relatively easy to walk down the hill from Carmichael Lane to the River Cart carrying a bundle of clothes and not meet a soul at the time of night in question as long as you kept off the main roads and stuck to the residential streets.

I suppose what I'm saying is that either option is feasible!

It's strange that there are no reported sightings of Pat after she left the Barrowlands.

I'd have expected there to be some witnesses if she caught a taxi or bus (or took a long walk home for that matter).

I guess (as someone suggested earlier on this thread) perhaps that critical week that elapsed while the police were sniffing around the Majestic blew it for them.

[Ms Diddles]

Patricia was found naked apart from her shoe/shoes. Why would the killer take her clothes away ? Well, just a long shot here but suppose her murderer gave Patricia a Moylan's card, or perhaps even his name and address on a scrap of paper . He could have searched for it afterwards, not finding it in the dark in his blind panic so stripped Patricia instead and took her handbag, clothes and legged it . If he did give Patricia a Moylan's card as the same possibly with Helen. He may have been disturbed before he could look for said evidence. The connection was made and the murders stopped. As we know now, once serial killers are interviewed/suspected they can and do stop killing for at least a while.

An interesting theory, Darryl!

Sutcliffe realised the significance of the new five pound note he left with a victim and went back to search for it.

I also believe Bible John did not plan any of his murders but when the poor victims refused his sexual advances his anger overtook every rational thought he may have had.

That would probably be my guess too.

Perhaps the killer regularly [ whoever he was ], beat his wife/partner if they refused sex with him and they were so scared of said individual that they indeed gave him an alibi when interviewed .
Also the killer may lie in the police archives somewhere. Someone who was accused of rape but the charges dropped. Would, if there are any rape victims out there who were also married press charges ?
Maybe an appeal so long after the events if there are any rape victims out there and still alive might bring a name forward.

It's an interesting idea.

I think it's highly unlikely that any married rape victim would have come forward.

To be honest with such low conviction rates and the dreadful stigma attached, I suspect that any unmarried ones would have likely thought twice about it too.

One last point didn't John Mcinnes wife say she was left traumatized by her marriage to him ?

Regards Darryl

Yes, and you would expect whoever did this to be a nightmare to be married to, to say the least.

[Ms Diddles]

Been listening to Jean (well the actor) on the Pod cast again. There is a bit of a contradiction. She states that when she heard of Helens murder she immediately thought it could have been Helens husband. Saying something like she didn't ' think BJ would be capable or that sort (cant remember exact words). This seems a bit odd as she had left Helen in the Taxi with BJ.

The contradiction is that although she says BJ was very quiet and a 'mammie's boy' he had a very vocal and heated argument with the manager of the club over the cigarette machine and that the manager was a very tough individual but BJ strongly confronted him and somewhat belittled him. (only a short time before the taxi ride)

My understanding was that BJ adopted a rather pompous and superior tone with the Barrowlands manager, rather than showing any overt signs of aggression.

I seem to recall Jeannie stating that he neither raised his voice nor swore (quite unusual for a regular Barras punter I suspect).

I believe there was a history (or at least some incidents) of domestic violence between George and Helen Puttock.

I seem to recall it was reported that Helen was wanting out of the relationship, so I can understand why Jeannie's immediate response would have been to suspect George.

In the Taxi Jean says BJ was quiet and had to be encouraged to say anything. Perhaps while he was in the taxi he was planning the murder. Thinking it through.

Entirely possible.

I wonder if he thought killing the victims close to their homes distances the crime from the Barrowlands in some sort of naïve thinking that the police would not make the Barrowlands connection. Sounds stupid but feasible. It is a lottery though, as his style (if it is one ) would mean he could have ended up miles and miles from his own home address.

It's possible.

In the case of Pat Docker the police were so busy erroneously chasing up leads at the Majestic that they almost missed the Barrowlands link.

Sorry all if my posts are a bit disjointed but I find it hard to be methodical and the whole thing seems odd

Me too!

Thinking about the reef knot (was that Helens murder) Some seem to suggest its a difficult knot. Many use this knot without realizing it. My father was in the Navy and explained to me 'left over right, right over left. There is a problem using this, as once the knot is complete you cannot tighten it any further as far as I recall. Tricky if its not tight enough to say strangle someone. I would imagine the killer did the left over right bit. pulled it tight until the deed was done then locked the knot with the right over left.

Just thoughts again

NW

Interesting thoughts, NW!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Like NW I also have difficulty with Darryl’s suggestion as to why the killer took the clothes though I have to say that it’s a clever suggestion and one that I certainly hadn’t considered before.

For me it would appear that the killer either had a bag with him or that he came in a vehicle. If he’d picked her up at Barrowland then I’d have though it unlikely that he’d have been carrying a bag with him. He might have offered her a lift home in a car though. This would have made it easier to get her undressed (she might have done this herself or at least she might have agreed to partially undress inside the car) leaving the killer to carry her body and dump it in the alleyway. Also there would have been less chance of being seen from someone’s bedroom window if he was u dressing her in the open. A car would also have made it much simpler to carry away the clothes. A man with no car or bag is unlikely to have wanted to bump into a patrolling Police Constable with an armful of women’s clothes. Two cars were seen and Elphinstone Dalgleish asked the public for information. I still think it at least possible that the killers car type might have been mentioned which discouraged him from using it again.

It’s a tricky one and I’d certainly like to hear more suggestions on this because I’m certainly not claiming that mine is a done deal. Maybe he just hid the clothes under an overcoat? I don’t know. A car appears is the obvious answer. Is it the right one though?

We haven’t got a complete list of her clothing but we do know that as well as a ‘yellow crocheted mini dress’ she was wearing a ‘grey duffle coat with a blue collar.’ A duffle coat on its own is quite a bulky item.

[New Waterloo]

Very thoughtful comments Darryl and a very good suggestion as to why he removed her clothes. Although I do have a little difficulty with the idea. Leaving the victim naked seems so strange to me but I don't think its unusual. Maybe its part of a dehumanizing sort of thing Or extreme hatred of women or power thing and perhaps there is someone with knowledge of human behaviors/psychology who could help explain.

I may be wrong but didn't the Ipswich murderer Stephen Wright leave his victims naked and I recall Natalie Pearman a young girl murdered in Norwich some years ago was I believe left naked.

I cant get my head round it but your explanation in Patricia's case seems very feasible.

I have has another listen to the McInnes section of the Podcast and there is so much contradiction with McInnes's personality and his description. I will have to listen again but I think his army report describes him as a heavy well built man a bit lazy (cant recall exact words) where a neighbour describes him as very very thin.

Yes you are correct. His wife apparently said she was traumatized by him and it took her some 20 years to get over it!

He seems a good bet to me but there is very much more to this case than meets the eye.

NW

[Darryl Kenyon]

Patricia was found naked apart from her shoe/shoes. Why would the killer take her clothes away ? Well, just a long shot here but suppose her murderer gave Patricia a Moylan's card, or perhaps even his name and address on a scrap of paper . He could have searched for it afterwards, not finding it in the dark in his blind panic so stripped Patricia instead and took her handbag, clothes and legged it . If he did give Patricia a Moylan's card as the same possibly with Helen. He may have been disturbed before he could look for said evidence. The connection was made and the murders stopped. As we know now, once serial killers are interviewed/suspected they can and do stop killing for at least a while.

Sutcliffe realised the significance of the new five pound note he left with a victim and went back to search for it.

I also believe Bible John did not plan any of his murders but when the poor victims refused his sexual advances his anger overtook every rational thought he may have had.
Perhaps the killer regularly [ whoever he was ], beat his wife/partner if they refused sex with him and they were so scared of said individual that they indeed gave him an alibi when interviewed .
Also the killer may lie in the police archives somewhere. Someone who was accused of rape but the charges dropped. Would, if there are any rape victims out there who were also married press charges ?
Maybe an appeal so long after the events if there are any rape victims out there and still alive might bring a name forward.

One last point didn't John Mcinnes wife say she was left traumatized by her marriage to him ?

Regards Darryl

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think the images do look very close Could I ask Barnflat please.

On the photo is that an anchor on the left pocket of his blazer/jacket. Just wondered if he was in the Navy or is that a library jacket

Thank you

NW

HI NW, yes I think it is the council's official crest.
The crest went through several changes over the years.

All Attendant's jackets had the crest on them.

[New Waterloo]

I think the images do look very close Could I ask Barnflat please.

On the photo is that an anchor on the left pocket of his blazer/jacket. Just wondered if he was in the Navy or is that a library jacket

Thank you

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's fine Horlick, I'm sure lots of folk get the names mixed up.

[cobalt]

Which Jeannie Langford did herself. She muddled up names and a criminal couch expert has now feasted on that and created a new suspect. Which sells well to a limited audience.

We are no further forward than we were when I was a paperboy in 1969.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I don’t know why I keep writing Templeman instead of Templeton? I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been doing it.

It's fine Horlick, I'm sure lots of folk get the names mixed up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t know why I keep writing Templeman instead of Templeton? I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been doing it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, I knew John Templeton for about 10 years when I was based in the Mitchell Library, and he was working as an Attendant in the Mitchell.
Prior to that he apparently spent some time working in the community libraries.

My position was Area Manager, and I spent about six years managing the West Area.
This covered libraries from the city centre all the way out to Drumchapel, and covered Hillhead and maryhill libraries among others.

I can't honestly remember if he worked in the West Area, but if he did then he probably worked in one of my libraries.
We tried to put people within easy travelling distance of their home, so if he was living in Melrose Gardens at the time, which I think he was, then he would probably be based in the West Area.

Re whether Templeton looked like any of the photo-fits, I attach a photo of him in what looks like his Attendant's uniform.
All Attendant's had uniforms but very few of them wore the full uniform of trousers, jacket and tie.

I also attach a copy of the aged photo-fit of the suspect.

Apologies, for some reason I can't seem to get them side by side.

Thanks Barn,

It looks a decent likeness to me. I’d certainly be interested to hear of any further research on Templeman if Bavin-Mizzi does continue.