Bible John (General Discussion)

[cobalt]

I understand that four top ranking Glasgow Police detectives visited Stonehouse (McInnes' home village) within a few days of the Helen Puttock murder. Since this place is around 25 miles outside Glasgow, where the murder took place, these detectives were well away from their 'manor.' So they must have had a compelling reason to go there and, reportedly, speak to John McInnes at Hamilton Police Station. Yet there is no record of this alleged interview and the official position remains that, despite such an unusual burst of activity, nothing of substance to the murder was obtained by their efforts: neither evidence for, nor evidence against, John McInnes.

I cannot see how four Glasgow detectives converging on Hamilton Police Station would help to lower the profile of the inquiries in relation to Jimmy McInnes. If Jimmy had not originated from the area- I suspect he did- then his relationship to the other McInnes family members would surely have been known in such a small place. The whole police/local grapevine would have been full of rumours when the big shots from Glasgow arrived in their police cars.

A lower key approach would have been to have Sandy McInnes drive person of interest, John McInnes, in his own car to the relevant police station in Glasgow to clear matters up. Some Glasgow police would have noticed the name of McInnes being the same as one of their serving officers, but it's not an uncommon name in Scotland and Glasgow is a big city. That would have created less of a furore than descending on Stonehouse.

To paraphrase Jim Garrison on Oswald's arrest in a cinema for the JFK murder: 'The most suspicious mass turnout since the Reichstag fire.'

[Herlock Sholmes]

You can certainly see why some might think that there was an attempt at some form of cover-up when it came to McInnes. The word the you use, ‘inexplicable’ sums up a lot about the case. Marcello Mega recalls multiple sources mentioning the card found at the scene and Mickey Moylan recalls some of his staff being questioned. Added to that, Sandy McInnes recalls that the police turned up at his house because of the card. The fact that they officers went to Stonehouse 2 days after the murder suggests that McInnes’s name wasn’t on it so the police must have gone through so checking/elimination process. Then again, as Mickey Moylan didn’t recall any great fuss perhaps they got to McInnes quickly. Maybe through two Moylan’s salesmen who ended up at the Barrowland that night? To me this seems the likeliest explanation. Perhaps they were questioned first and it was them that mentioned seeing McInnes that night? I think that you’ve already suggested this. It seems very possible to me.

Why wasn’t he investigated further? I can only wonder, as is suggested on the podcast, that Jimmy McInnes might have had something to do with this (perhaps he’d genuinely believed that his cousin was innocent but wanted to keep his name out of it?) Jimmy told the cold case guys that he hadn’t really worked on the case apart from manning the phones once but this wasn’t true. He checked Hannah’s taxi for prints and strangely found none. He went to see a woman who said that she could name the killer, but he left no record and there was an attempt to scrub out her name then alter the numbering to hide the visit. He certainly wasn’t happy about the cold case investigation. Enough to raise eyebrows.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This may not work, it's my first go at this.

This is a copy of the Google map showing the route from Derby Street, where the suspect got off the bus, and the walk to Melrose Gardens where John Templeton lived.

On my saved map you can zoom in and out, I hope you can do the same with the attached map.

I will keep playing with it and other maps.

Would folks prefer Google maps or straightforward street maps?

Just a normal map would be better for me Barn. In tech terms consider that you’re dealing with an 8 year old.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Nope, it doesn't work.

The detail is lost. I'll keep working at it.

[barnflatwyngarde]

This may not work, it's my first go at this.

This is a copy of the Google map showing the route from Derby Street, where the suspect got off the bus, and the walk to Melrose Gardens where John Templeton lived.

On my saved map you can zoom in and out, I hope you can do the same with the attached map.

I will keep playing with it and other maps.

Would folks prefer Google maps or straightforward street maps?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Happy 1000th post Barn.

Thanks Herlock, I never even noticed.

Re the maps relating to the case, I'll have a go over the weekend and see if I can pull something together.

[cobalt]

The apparent failure of police investigating the Helen Puttock murder to eliminate John McInnes from the enquiry is inexplicable. They had at least half a dozen decent eye witnesses to call upon within 48 hours of the crime- a crime where ID was considered such a central plank of the case that they even commissioned an artist to draw an impression of the suspect. Yet John McInnes, who was interviewed by police very soon after the murder, was seemingly never put on an ID parade at all. This despite his reported admission that he had attended the Barrowland the previous evening and (allegedly) an advertising card from his place of work was found at the scene. If no such card existed then it is difficult to understand why McInnes came to police attention at all.

I understand that McInnes is not recorded in police files as having been interviewed but that there are a number of former police officers who have stated that he was interviewed at Hamilton Police Station. This seems to be supported by a relative in conversation with cold case detectives. There is even local folklore to the effect that McInnes was jokingly referred to at the time as 'Bible John,' which would support his having been taken in for questioning.

Anyone of interest to the police who was 'helping them with their enquiries' in respect of a murder would be expected to: account for his movements the previous evening; to supply police with his clothing; and to undertake a cursory medical check for any recent injuries. If these drew a blank then McInnes could have been dropped down the list of suspects, perhaps eliminated. But I doubt this could have happened, otherwise the authorities would not have exhumed his remains many years later.

And short of DNA, there should still have been forensic evidence collected at the scene. There must have been some scrapings under the victim's fingernails if she was fighting for her life. There must have been some fibre transfer on her clothing, particularly her ocelot fur coat. There must have been some of the killer's hair shed during the struggle. Perhaps footprint evidence as well.

Just an afterthought on BJ's apparent handbag fetish. Maybe he understood that, after raking through the contents, he had left his fingerprints behind so he took the handbags away and dumped them for that reason.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi cobalt, I think that the walking time would be closer to 40 minutes, but even so, the timings do seem to fit.

According to Audrey Gillan the dishevelled man got off the bus at the junction of Argyle Street and Derby Street which is about 500 yards from 204 Berkeley Street where John McInnes's aunt and uncle lived, and where he apparently sometimes stayed if he missed his last bus home to Stonehouse.

From Derby Street to Kelvin way is 400 yards, and the distance to Melrose Gardens, which was where Bavin-Mizzi's suspect John Templeton lived is 1.2 miles.

So in a nutshell, when the dishevelled man got off the bus it was handy for both Mcinness and Templeton.

Happy 1000th post Barn.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is anyone on here able to knock up a street map with these locations marked? Taxi drop off points for Jean, Helen (approximation) and BJ? It would be good to get an idea of these locations in relation to each other.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The spotting of a potential suspect on a late night bus turns out to be a real 'dug's breakfast.' HS has identified about three versions in circulation, and none of these includes the long standing claim that a suspect was seen heading towards a ferry crossing over the River Clyde.

The version which has a dishevelled BJ look-alike boarding a bus near Gardner Street at 2am might be significant. Going by the reported statements of Jeannie Langford and taxi driver Alexander Hannah, it appears Helen Puttock was likely killed between 0.45 and 1.am. A person walking from Earl Street to Gardner Street (a fairly straight route towards Glasgow city centre) would have covered the 2.5 miles in around 50 minutes, which is close enough to the time of the 2am late service bus. Allowing for the killer to attempt some crude tidying up of his person and to ditch the victim's handbag (which I believe was never recovered) the timings match rather well.

Hi cobalt, I think that the walking time would be closer to 40 minutes, but even so, the timings do seem to fit.

According to Audrey Gillan the dishevelled man got off the bus at the junction of Argyle Street and Derby Street which is about 500 yards from 204 Berkeley Street where John McInnes's aunt and uncle lived, and where he apparently sometimes stayed if he missed his last bus home to Stonehouse.

From Derby Street to Kelvin way is 400 yards, and the distance to Melrose Gardens, which was where Bavin-Mizzi's suspect John Templeton lived is 1.2 miles.

So in a nutshell, when the dishevelled man got off the bus it was handy for both Mcinness and Templeton.

[cobalt]

The spotting of a potential suspect on a late night bus turns out to be a real 'dug's breakfast.' HS has identified about three versions in circulation, and none of these includes the long standing claim that a suspect was seen heading towards a ferry crossing over the River Clyde.

The version which has a dishevelled BJ look-alike boarding a bus near Gardner Street at 2am might be significant. Going by the reported statements of Jeannie Langford and taxi driver Alexander Hannah, it appears Helen Puttock was likely killed between 0.45 and 1.am. A person walking from Earl Street to Gardner Street (a fairly straight route towards Glasgow city centre) would have covered the 2.5 miles in around 50 minutes, which is close enough to the time of the 2am late service bus. Allowing for the killer to attempt some crude tidying up of his person and to ditch the victim's handbag (which I believe was never recovered) the timings match rather well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No sweat!

I am typing up my notes from episode 8 of the podcast.
Like you, I am having to go back to the podcast constantly to clarify things.

I have Blue Nile playing in the background, sustaining my soul, so everything is fine!

You can’t beat a bit of Blue Nile.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn,

I was going to have another listen to that part tonight to see if I could work it out but you’ve saved me a job. I should have sussed it but I didn’t.

Thanks

No sweat!

I am typing up my notes from episode 8 of the podcast.
Like you, I am having to go back to the podcast constantly to clarify things.

I have Blue Nile playing in the background, sustaining my soul, so everything is fine!

[Herlock Sholmes]

The podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?) Then a couple of lines later we get the information about Argyll and Derby Street.


Then, in the Garcia book we get:

”Having waved goodbye, she caught a glimpse of her sister and John’s impassive face through the car window as it turned back east. It was around half midnight. That wasn’t the last sighting that night of the oddly dressed figure from the Barrowland. It was around 2 a.m. when a near-empty night bus travelling along DuThe podcast transcript says that that the bus conductor and driver saw a man running down Dumbarton Road to Shevald ((I don’t know what or where Shevald is or whether it’s one of the many examples of poor transcribing?) He got onto the bus and then got off just before Charing Cross (which I believe is where they originally caught their taxi that night?)”


In the David Wilson and Paul Harrison book we get:

“At about 2 a.m., a night bus picked up a dishevelled man who had earlier been seen walking up Dumbarton Road, which ran parallel to Earl Street. Some of the passengers noticed that he wore a dirty jacket and had a bruise on his cheek. He eventually got off the bus at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Gray Street.”


In Steve MacGregor’s book we get:

“At around 02:00am, a Number six night service bus was travelling towards the city centre on Dumbarton Road when it stopped between Gardner Street and Fortrose Street (around two and a half miles closer to the city centre than Earl Street) to pick up a single male passenger. The driver, conductor and another passenger noted that the man looked as if he had been in a fight – his jacket was muddy and he had a scratch below one eye. The man seemed embarrassed by his appearance and a short time later, at the junction of Dumbarton Road and Derby Street, he stopped the bus and got off.”

I’ve only just noticed by the way that some of the above text is mixed up. The podcast and the Garcia quote part. I made a mistake while I was posting this which caused stuff to be duplicated. I thought that I’d sorted it out but obviously I hadn’t. The emboldened part shouldn’t have been there and it’s covered some of the actual quote. Doing stuff in haste often results in ****-up’s. I still do it though. Apologies for any confusion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, I think that "to shevald" is probably Audrey saying "dishevelled".

The Scots brogue is a marvellous thing.

Hi Barn,

I was going to have another listen to that part tonight to see if I could work it out but you’ve saved me a job. I should have sussed it but I didn’t.

Thanks