Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Here's one not on Neal's list as far as I can tell. Interesting he has a brother in the USA.
Although his records are filed under scots Guards he did also serve in the Royal Artillery. His desertion complicates the records of where he served and when. His Sikkim Field Force decoration might mean he was still in the Royal Artillery in 1888, as the Scots Guards don't appear to have been involved at the Sikkim expedition but some sections of the Royal Artillery were.

James Kelly alias James Curdon born Donaghmore, Castlefyn, Donegal
Attested 12th March 1877,age 18 years at Omagh
occupation labourer

Confessed to desertion 81 to 82 while serving in Royal Artillery as James Curdon.
discharged April 1897

medals and decorations Burma Field Force 1886-7
Sikkim Field Force 1888-9

next of kin brother Andrew, Philadelphia USA

[Bridewell]

She's Not There!

Hello Bridewell. Fair enough. But should she not have sung Bonnie Barbara Allen to Blotchy?

Cheers.
LC

Unfortunately I can't find a Mary Jane Kelly born in Limerigg (not yet anyway) so my horse looks to have fallen at the first hurdle. I have found a Mary Kelly, 20 miles away in Glasgow, with a brother called Henry and just the right age, but she was born in Ireland!!! (I think it would be stretching a point to argue that she was born in Ireland, but moved to Glasgow - via Limerigg!)

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

"Got to have my Scots."

Hello Bridewell. Fair enough. But should she not have sung Bonnie Barbara Allen to Blotchy?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Why?

Hello Bridewell. Interesting angle but certainly not in harmony with Barnett's story.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Why so?

Barnett's story:

"Deceased has often told me as to her parents, she said she was born in Limerick - that she was 25 years of age - and from there went to Wales when very young"

His deposition says "Limerick", but not Ireland. If Mary Kelly had told him she was born in "Limerigg" and (like me!) he'd never heard of it, might he not have heard it as Limerick? I know army recruitment is not that rigid, in terms of geographical source, but who is more likely to join the Scots Guards, an Irishman from Limerick or a Scot from Limerigg?

Regards, Bridewell

[Debra A]

The battalion returned
home to the peace and quiet of the UK in late 1885
and took part in Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee Military
Review in 1887.

That might be why a few of the men serving in 1888 seem to have been attested in London during 1887?

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

Scots Guards? Glasgow? Have we been looking in the wrong country? Should we be looking for a Scot, not an Irishman?....

Twenty miles east of Glasgow is the town of Limerigg! What do you think?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell
I managed to decipher one part of the rest of Bridget's Glasgow address and it looks like 'Bishopsbriggs' ?

[lynn cates]

sour note

Hello Bridewell. Interesting angle but certainly not in harmony with Barnett's story.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Limerick?

A check of men named Kelly and variants attested to the Scots Guards 1868-1888 on the pension records shows 12 only, not all them were serving in 1888, however.


Neil Kelly b 1858 Barony Glasgow
attested 23 April 1879 at London age 21 years 6 months
released from 2nd Lanark Militia
occupation labourer
transfered to reserves 1885
discharged 91
next of kin, mother, Bridgett Kelly [next address section illegible to me] Glasgow

Hi Debra,

Scots Guards? Glasgow? Have we been looking in the wrong country? Should we be looking for a Scot, not an Irishman?....

Twenty miles east of Glasgow is the town of Limerigg! What do you think?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Does it seem to you that in Barnett's direct Inquest
testimony, when he's referring to MJK's brothers, one
in the army, one named Henry, he's speaking of two
different people?

Liv

Liv, yeah, it does seem like Barnett is talking about Henry as if he is a different brother to the one in the army in your second snippet.
If we presume he was in the Scots Guards still, and his name was Kelly then maybe something might eventually jump out at us from the biographical details of all those named Kelly serving in the regiment in 1888...nothing has done so far for me though

[Livia]

Hey Debs

In the copy of Barnett's statement to the police,
(the one posted by Dave O that precipitated
the discussion about Johnto and joined up
words), written by Abberline, it says:

"...deceased told me on one occasion...that she
had a brother named Henrry (sic?) serving in
2nd Battn Scots Guards and known amongst
his comrades as Johnto and I believe the
Regiment is now in Ireland..."

It seems to me that this was Abberline
paraphrasing what Barnett told him, as
it would seem more likely that a police
officer would refer to MJK as the deceased
and Abberline seemingly adds the thought
that he believes the Regiment is now in
Ireland.

Edited to add: Ok, on re-reading it, it does seem
as though the "I believe the Regiment is now in
Ireland", is a continuation of what Barnett said,
and not an addition by Abberline.

But in Barnett's Inquest testimony he
says:

"...[Coroner] Have you had conversation with deceased about her parents ? -

Yes, frequently. She said she was born in Limerick, and
went when very young to Wales. She did not say how
long she lived there, but that she came to London about
four years ago. Her father's name was John Kelly, a "gaffer"
or foreman in an iron works in Carnarvonshire, or Carmarthen.
She said she had one sister, who was respectable, who travelled
from market place to market place. This sister was very fond
of her. There were six brothers living in London, and one
was in the army. One of them was named Henry.
I never saw the brothers to my knowledge..."

Does it seem to you that in Barnett's direct Inquest
testimony, when he's referring to MJK's brothers, one
in the army, one named Henry, he's speaking of two
different people?

Liv

[lynn cates]

covered

Hello Debs. Thanks. Then that approach is covered.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Sounds a bit awkward, but I wonder if there is even a slim chance that it was Scots Guards, but NOT 2nd battalion?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, there's no way to distinguish between Battalions in the searches so the 12 men named Kelly (and variants) I mentioned are just Scots Guards attested between 1868 and 1888 and cover both Battalions. Neal's list covered just the 2nd batallion I believe.
I'll try and post the details of the men not of Neal's list but on mine later on tonight.

Hi Liv,no worries, thanks for posting it here too. I couldn't find an Edwin Kelly in any regiment with a quick fiddle earlier, but I'll have a look properly later with different spellings.

[Livia]

Sorry Debs. I didn't see this new thread
until after I'd posted on the other.

Originally Posted by Livia
Mine has nothing on yours, Debs!

From Wiki:

In 1885, the 2nd Battalion took part in the Suakin
Expedition to the Sudan, taking part in the Battle
of Hasheen, and gaining the battle honour Suakin 1885
for their part in the campaign. [a J. Kelly, regimental
number 91*, is listed in the medals rolls as having
participated in this expedition] The battalion returned
home to the peace and quiet of the UK in late 1885
and took part in Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee Military
Review in 1887.

Wasn't MJK hooked up with Barnett by this time and
wouldn't the Military Review take place in London along
with the other celebrations of the Queen's Golden Jubilee?

Debs, since it appears that Henry John Joseph Kelly was
known as "Johnto", is it possible that he enlisted under
the name John rather than Henry?

In 1881, the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was stationed
in South Chelsea Barracks along with the 2nd Battalion
"Genadie" Guards (Grenadier? Genadie is how it's written
on the front page which describes the enumeration
district). There are three Kellys in the 2nd Scots Guards,
Michael (b. Scotland), Edwin (b. Scotland) and William
(b. Westmeath, Ireland), no John or Henry. But
there is a John Kelly, private soldier, b. Longford
Ireland in c. 1858 in the 2nd Batt "Genadie" Guards.
I know these guys could transfer between battalions.
But when they retired, would their records be filed
under their final battalion, or the one they started out in?

*Most regimental numbers seem to be four digits,
odd that his is only two.

This military stuff is not my forte, and I know you've
been working on this for a while now, so I'll defer
to your greater knowledge on this one.

Liv

Thanks for all this Liv. I'll check it out and see if there are any records for the men you've identified and post them to the Kellys in the Scots Guard thread.
Usually the final battalion and regiment before discharge and pension is recorded in the ones I've looked at but other regiments served in are noted and can also be checked independently.

These two are on Neal's list:

5352 William Kelly b. Westmeath, Ireland
6374 Michael Kelly b. Sterling, Scotland

This one might be Killey, hard to say,
the dot appears to the left of the "i"
or "e", might be a defect on the sheet
or on the film.

1881 census Chelsea Barracks 2nd B Scots Guards

Edwin Kelly b. Lanarkshire, Scotland, age 23, occupation miner

[lynn cates]

different battalion

Hello Debs. Sounds a bit awkward, but I wonder if there is even a slim chance that it was Scots Guards, but NOT 2nd battalion?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

last one

This is the last one that appears on Neal's list.
The others either don't show with the number noted or not at all in the records when searched by name.There appears to have been some mixing up of the soldier's numbers.
A check of men named Kelly and variants attested to the Scots Guards 1868-1888 on the pension records shows 12 only, not all them were serving in 1888, however.


"4751 I failed to write down the name but it would not have been Henry, John, or Johnto? (to army reserve)"

Neil Kelly b 1858 Barony Glasgow
attested 23 April 1879 at London age 21 years 6 months
released from 2nd Lanark Militia
occupation labourer
transfered to reserves 1885
discharged 91
next of kin, mother, Bridgett Kelly [next address section illegible to me] Glasgow