Kellys in the Scots Guards

[PaulB]

Hi Paul, yes, sorry, I didn't mean it to read like the research was mine (although I think finding her on the Teutonic was?).

Hi Debs,
It didn't read like that at all. Nor would I ever suggest such a thing! I was just drawing attention to the fact that we have known about that story for a long time and exhaustively researched it, but as I wasn't sure where the story was quickly and easily available I pointed to the book.

Yes, Morganstone, Flemming, and even the far less reliable Mrs Carthy and the unidentified Mrs Buki perhaps confirm the least believable part of Mary Kelly's story, namely working in a high class West End bordello. On balance, onehas to pause and question whether or not she would have been lying about a brother in the Scots Guards. I know I found researching that out to be highly frustrating. It's easier now, of course, with the records being available online.

[Cogidubnus]

I hope you're not trying to hi-jack the thread Dave?

Not at all Jon...just pointing out the obvious...that you don't want to go believing everything you read in the papers...

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Debs
There's a few pages about it in The Uncensored Facts.

Hi Paul, yes, sorry, I didn't mean it to read like the research was mine (although I think finding her on the Teutonic was?).

[Debra A]

Debra

Just for the record

I think her whole life story was a lie and I dont think her real name was Mary Kelly either.

I also dont think her relationship with Barnet was set in stone as some seem to think. Are we to believe that all the time they were supposedly together as an item she never prostitued herself.

Lests face it much of the ripper mystery is centered around lies and deceit either from persons giving false details, to those using aliases, to police officers the list goes on and on.

The parts about Flemming and Morganstone seem to have some basis in truth anyway. Morganstone isn't a name you come across every day, yet we have one in the East End at the right time, we also have a Joseph Flemming who fits what we know.

[PaulB]

As I remember it the Mary Jane Rees story went something like this:

The papers reported that 'MJK' had worked for the abortionist Mary Jane Rees, nee Hopkins.
The papers then reported that 'MJK' hadn't in fact worked for Mary Jane Rees but her predecessor the first Mrs Rees.
Inquiries showed that a girl named Kelly had indeed worked for the first Mrs Rees and her husband.
It was noted that she was a native of Llanelli and her father had been marine store dealer.
Her name was Abi Kelly and she did indeed work for the Rees's at some point. Mr Rees even mentioned that he had been to London and seen Abbi there.

Abbi Kelly had in fact married a man named William Muir and emigrated to the US where she has been traced by researchers in the census and ship's passenger lists well after 1888.

Hi Debs
There's a few pages about it in The Uncensored Facts.

[Debra A]

As I remember it the Mary Jane Rees story went something like this:

The papers reported that 'MJK' had worked for the abortionist Mary Jane Rees, nee Hopkins.
The papers then reported that 'MJK' hadn't in fact worked for Mary Jane Rees but her predecessor the first Mrs Rees.
Inquiries showed that a girl named Kelly had indeed worked for the first Mrs Rees and her husband.
It was noted that she was a native of Llanelli and her father had been marine store dealer.
Her name was Abi Kelly and she did indeed work for the Rees's at some point. Mr Rees even mentioned that he had been to London and seen Abbi there.

Abbi Kelly had in fact married a man named William Muir and emigrated to the US where she has been traced by researchers in the census and ship's passenger lists well after 1888.

[lynn cates]

discredited

Hello Garry, Jon. Yes, that story was discredited, if I recall properly.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

explosion

Hello Jon. Well, I even looked at the London Bridge explosion of 1884. 3 died, 2 Lomasneys and a Fleming. No Davies.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

As I recall, Debra, one newspaper followed up the Rees claims and declared them unconnected with the Miller's Court victim.

[Wickerman]

I wouldn't dismiss any out of hand Jon...and I suspect, despite your sophistry, you know it...I merely concurred with Trevor that otherwise unsubstantiated press reports need to be treated with some caution...

Which does not exactly run contrary to what I had wrote;

"Meaning..... we are in no position to discredit, change or discard any one of them until something tangible surfaces to demonstrate any one of those stories holds a minutae of truth."

and which Trevor seemed to object to. Yet you agreed with the objection?

Is this a glass-half-full is not half-empty, type argument?

Let me turn the question...which part of Leather Apron do you find untrue and why?

I hope you're not trying to hi-jack the thread Dave?


Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

What!??

Ditto.

I bet if I gave the exact details of my great great granny's life and family but didn't give her name, no one would be able to find her.

We are scraping the barrel back to Mary Jane Rees and Abi Kelly now?
Abi Muir was safe and well in the USA well past 1888.

[Garry Wroe]

What!??

[Wickerman]

White if you like Jon...in all honesty an already well-known and oft-quoted report from the Evening News makes no odds...

sorry!

Dave

It makes no odds that a source in Wales verified Kelly's existence under her name?

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

What colour was the horse?

White if you like Jon...in all honesty an already well-known and oft-quoted report from the Evening News makes no odds...

sorry!

Dave

[Wickerman]

If I'm reading this right, we've missed something..

It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen.

What colour was the horse?

Regards, Jon S.