For what reason do we include Stride?

[APerno]

I don't imagine that cachous were particularly luxurious or expensive.

Ah! I have once again been fooled by Hollywood who like to use the candy or grapes as supposed bait.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps we should be wary of generalisations. Schwartz described "a black cap with a peak", Lawende a "grey cloth cap with a peak of the same material".

oh god here we go down the rabbit hole with sams infamous minutia analysis. : )

[Abby Normal]

another for the cashoo crowd,Peaked Cap Deniers and conspiracy club ; ) (sorry just having a little fun with the labels)

but the question is serious-If Schwartz was making the story up ie lying about his involvement-why no putting him forth as the killer of stride? he was apparently a member of the club according to you all, and someone from the club was responsible for the murder, no? why not him? hes the perfect candidate.

according to you:
He puts himself there.
he lied.
it would explain cashoo in her hand (he was using her services in the yard).
he fits the jewish profile theory.
it explains why he tried to make fake bs man suspect a gentile (because he himself Schwartz is a jew).

or then why not Diemshitz as her killer a lot applies to him too?

if its a club conspiracy then which one of the club members did it? and why not Schwartz or diemshitz?

[Sam Flynn]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

Perhaps we should be wary of generalisations. Schwartz described "a black cap with a peak", Lawende a "grey cloth cap with a peak of the same material".

[Joshua Rogan]

I’m just wondering why only the second of those two pictures is visible on my screen? It doesn’t really matter as the second picture illustrates the point perfectly.

Are you (like Samuel Friedman) a cap-blocker?

[Abby Normal]

Hmmm, thinking about it, "peaked cap" could be used in the UK differently than I'm thinking. If it doesn't count things like the "cheese cutter" (Andy Cap type hats), and just things like the fellows in the top photo in positions 5, 7, and 8 from the left, then that would change the odds quite a bit as there's only about 6 over the two photos (and that's being generous by calling #2 and 3 from the left in the top photo as examples; with 2nd row 2nd from left in the bottom photo the only example there), making 3 unrelated sightings just over 1/2 of 1%, and that becomes far more interesting.

The difference in the estimates from the two photos, though, makes me wonder how representative they are. But there are photos around from the period one could sample from, so some sort of estimate might be possible. Probably a good idea to try and work out the odds, rather than debate based upon our personal guesses of what the proportions would be.

- Jeff.

Add in now the odds that the three unrelated sightings also included being seen with the same ripper victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Were not the cachous considered a luxury and normally out of the economic reach of the working class poor; that it would be unlikely for such a valued item to be cast to the ground uneaten? Or is this not true?

I don't imagine that cachous were particularly luxurious or expensive.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah for sure, hundreds if not thousands of variations of a peaked cap. not only a wide rage of British styles, but Russian styles, Jewish styles, French, German, there's also military styles, seaman styles, etc.

Look at all the different styles here...



and here...

I’m just wondering why only the second of those two pictures is visible on my screen? It doesn’t really matter as the second picture illustrates the point perfectly.

[JeffHamm]

Hmmm, thinking about it, "peaked cap" could be used in the UK differently than I'm thinking. If it doesn't count things like the "cheese cutter" (Andy Cap type hats), and just things like the fellows in the top photo in positions 5, 7, and 8 from the left, then that would change the odds quite a bit as there's only about 6 over the two photos (and that's being generous by calling #2 and 3 from the left in the top photo as examples; with 2nd row 2nd from left in the bottom photo the only example there), making 3 unrelated sightings just over 1/2 of 1%, and that becomes far more interesting.

The difference in the estimates from the two photos, though, makes me wonder how representative they are. But there are photos around from the period one could sample from, so some sort of estimate might be possible. Probably a good idea to try and work out the odds, rather than debate based upon our personal guesses of what the proportions would be.

- Jeff.

[APerno]

From the look of those pictures I would conclude that the sighting of three different men wearing a peaked cap offers no argument that the witnesses saw the same man. I foolishly always thought 'peak cap' meant something far more particular; something British that I didn't understand. I think maybe I always envisioned a Deerstalker, or at least some particular sailor's cap; something special the witnesses saw. Now with this definition of a peak cap the peak cap sightings seem meaningless.

[APerno]

I think the simplest answer to the cachous problem is, they were on the ground before Liz was killed.
She may have dropped them as she was assaulted, assuming they were hers to begin with.
Liz happened to fall to the ground and her left hand fell beside the packet of cachous. As her fingers began to clench the packet became trapped between her thumb and forefinger. The doctors just assumed they had been in her hand, when in fact they had been on the ground before she fell.

Were not the cachous considered a luxury and normally out of the economic reach of the working class poor; that it would be unlikely for such a valued item to be cast to the ground uneaten? Or is this not true?

[JeffHamm]

Well, from those two photos, counting anything like a "tam" (no brim) or with a full brim around the head as being "not peaked" and the rest are "peaked caps", it looks like there's 24 "peaked caps" and 14 "not". (so about 63% are peaked; and nobody is without a hat). If that is a close approximation to the general population, then that would mean there's a 25% chance of spotting 3 different people all wearing peaked caps.

- Jeff

Sorry, top photo, forth from the left, I first saw that as peaked, but it might just be a knitted cap. That would make it around 21.6% chance rate. In either case, caution recommended.

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

So I guess the question now is what are we to make of the description of someone wearing a peaked hat? It would seem we really have no way of determining exactly what the witness was describing. I guess we could look at random street scenes from 1888 and try to determine how prevalent it was for a man to wear a hat and then try to determine how many of those hats could be described as peaked and if a particular style was most prevalent. Even then we would really just be guessing.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

Ah for sure, hundreds if not thousands of variations of a peaked cap. not only a wide rage of British styles, but Russian styles, Jewish styles, French, German, there's also military styles, seaman styles, etc.

Look at all the different styles here...



and here...

[Wickerman]

So you're saying that Stride kept hold of the cachous as she was thrown to the floor. Didn't let go of them to cushion her fall? And kept hold of them as her killer chased her into the darkness of the yard? Do you think most women fearing for their lives would run into a yard at night time instead of onto the streets for help from the nearest citizen or policeman?

Or did she stop to freshen her breath as BS Man was chasing her into the yard?

You can't get away from those damn cachous, I'm afraid. They point to a woman who was killed swiftly and suddenly. Schwartz describes a woman that was being harassed and manhandled moments before her death.

I think the simplest answer to the cachous problem is, they were on the ground before Liz was killed.
She may have dropped them as she was assaulted, assuming they were hers to begin with.
Liz happened to fall to the ground and her left hand fell beside the packet of cachous. As her fingers began to clench the packet became trapped between her thumb and forefinger. The doctors just assumed they had been in her hand, when in fact they had been on the ground before she fell.

It was the medical opinion that the killer used the scarf to choke her from behind before slashing her throat. If this happened as she was fleeing into the yard to the club door, her head would be facing the gate, not the other way around. Try to reconstruct the scenario for yourself and see.

Quite consistent with her being attacked from behind, as she faced the wall.