For what reason do we include Stride?

[Wickerman]

Forensically, the position of the body and the cachous doesn't add up with your scenario. Are we to assume that Stride kept hold of the cachous as she was floored by BS Man and then chased into the yard? If she was indeed killed escaping into the yard, why was her body facing the gates? If anything, the forensics point to Stride exiting the yard with her guard down, before she was killed swiftly and suddenly.

You don't think she might have been facing the wall when she was attacked, then?

[JeffHamm]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Fashion is not my forte, but the peak of a cap is just the front brim (like on a baseball cap). I think a "peaked cap" refers to a hat where the brim is just to the front, like what the cartoon character Andy Cap used to wear. These would come in a number of variations though, and my understanding is that they were common. It might also be used to describe quite different looking hats, like a "captain's hat", again, where the brim is just to the front and doesn't run around the whole hat (like a fedora). There's probably a thread on this somewhere, but without knowing for sure, I've always had the impression that the description "peaked cap/hat" is a pretty generic description that could describe a very wide range of otherwise quite different looking hats. But as I say, I don't know if that's correct or not.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

I got you jeff. But the fact that marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and company along with the anon church st sighting all describe basically the same man all wearing a peaked cap and its pretty much a done deal. I dont care how common peaked caps were when you have 5 seperate and reliable witnesses saying the man was wearing a peaked cap... i mean come on what are the chances. One sighting, lawende and company is three men together and one the curchst sighting was inbetween the two murders in location at the right time and in the paper before any other of the descriptions were.

plus apperently it made an impression on abberline who also thought the ripper wore a peaked cap.

the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event. Its a no brainer.

Hi Abby Normal,

Well, the chances of 3 different people wearing peaked caps is entirely dependent upon how common peaked caps were, so I think we have to care how common they were. I don't know how common they were, so I'll make up a range of numbers just to illustrate the point. Let's say 90% of the men wore peaked caps (highly improbable of course), then the chances of 3 totally unrelated people are wearing peaked caps would be around 73%. If 75% wore them then we're at about 42% chance. If 50% of men wore peaked caps, then random chance is is still 12.5%. If 25% of the men wore peaked caps, we're down to about 1.5%.

I have no idea how common peaked caps were, but I don't think they were rare, and I believe most men did wear hats of some sort. Now even 25% isn't rare by any means, but if they were more common than that, then the chance probability starts getting high enough that caution is called for.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

While the descriptions of BS and Lawende's suspect could be of the same person, both are fairly generic. Peaked caps and dark clothing were not exactly uncommon after all. But, that aside, the fact that the two descriptions are not clearly of two different attackers again, leaves open for consideration the possibility that Stride's killer and Eddowes' killer are one in the same, both being BS.

And before anyone thinks "but they could have been different people", I'm just saying that possibility remains open as viable, not insisting it is true or the only possibility that is viable, so yes, it could have been two different people too because the descriptions are so common they could overlap easily. But it doesn't preclude either, so again, much like the cachous evidence, it can be explained if BS was, or was not, her attacker. it doesn't allow us to exclude lines of inquiry, which is the point I've been trying to make but for someone reason people are treating it as if I'm insisting the attack did go down as I've suggested, which I think I'm being clear that's not what I'm saying.

- Jeff

I got you jeff. But the fact that marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and company along with the anon church st sighting all describe basically the same man all wearing a peaked cap and its pretty much a done deal. I dont care how common peaked caps were when you have 5 seperate and reliable witnesses saying the man was wearing a peaked cap... i mean come on what are the chances. One sighting, lawende and company is three men together and one the curchst sighting was inbetween the two murders in location at the right time and in the paper before any other of the descriptions were.

plus apperently it made an impression on abberline who also thought the ripper wore a peaked cap.

the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event. Its a no brainer.

[c.d.]

These imagined scenarios where Stride is running for her life while certainly possible are also time consuming. The B.S. man had just seen Schwartz and the Pipe Man run off presumably to find the nearest PC who was now on his way to the scene. In terms of self preservation, the best thing for the B.S. man to do was get the hell out of there as quickly as possible.

And these same scenarios have Stride being roughly handled trying to escape or being pulled back into the yard yet she holds on to the cachous and her clothes are not torn or disheveled. Does this seem probable?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Regarding a woman soliciting, what does it take to reach the conclusion that she was more likely than not doing so? Does she have to be holding a sign saying "I am soliciting" or wearing a day glow orange hunting vest or something similar to indicate what she was up to?

And again, a point the no evidence of soliciting crowd simply ignores is that even if they did not go out that evening with the intention of soliciting we have absolutely no idea of their response should they be approached and offered a generous inducement.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"You can't get away from those damn cachous, I'm afraid. They point to a woman who was killed swiftly and suddenly. Schwartz describes a woman that was being harassed and manhandled moments before her death."

Hello Harry,

I agree with you about the significance of the cachous.

But "moments before her death?" No. I am afraid it was minutes not moments. Enough minutes for Swanson to allow for the possibility of her killer coming along after the B.S. man left. You conclude that Schwartz must have lied because his account doesn't seem to jibe with the details of her murder but again all he says he saw is a woman being pushed. How can he be faulted regarding details of her murder if he didn't witness it?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

to the cashoo crowd:

did Israel Schwartz just happen to come up with a suspect wearing a peaked cap and luckily get that right in his made up story too?

Hi Abby,

While the descriptions of BS and Lawende's suspect could be of the same person, both are fairly generic. Peaked caps and dark clothing were not exactly uncommon after all. But, that aside, the fact that the two descriptions are not clearly of two different attackers again, leaves open for consideration the possibility that Stride's killer and Eddowes' killer are one in the same, both being BS.

And before anyone thinks "but they could have been different people", I'm just saying that possibility remains open as viable, not insisting it is true or the only possibility that is viable, so yes, it could have been two different people too because the descriptions are so common they could overlap easily. But it doesn't preclude either, so again, much like the cachous evidence, it can be explained if BS was, or was not, her attacker. it doesn't allow us to exclude lines of inquiry, which is the point I've been trying to make but for someone reason people are treating it as if I'm insisting the attack did go down as I've suggested, which I think I'm being clear that's not what I'm saying.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

to the cashoo crowd:

did Israel Schwartz just happen to come up with a suspect wearing a peaked cap and luckily get that right in his made up story too?

[Abby Normal]

Yes, that is possible too. BS being the killer is not the only possible interpretation, but many seem to think BS could not have been the attacker. I think he could have been, and that there is nothing in the evidence we have that completely rules him out. Similarly, it is possible for BS to have then moved on, and someone else to have come along and attacked her again. The thing is, we have no evidence at all of this newcomer, and it is possible for BS to have continued his attack and killed her.

- Jeff

exactly Jeff
the cashoo crowd want to disregard the man seen attacking her-coming up with ludicrous alternatives like phantom suspects, lying witnesses and club conspiracies-mainly because she was still found clutching something in her hand. its stupid.

[Harry D]

Extreme reasoning apart, I just don't see how it's remotely likely that Stride would have been holding onto the cachous for dear life, as if they were some valuable object, whilst being pulled into the street, spun round, and thrown to the ground. And I certainly don't think she would then enter ta pitch black passagway, voluntarily, with a man who'd just assaulted her! Not during the Ripper scare; She'd have to he insane!

Indeed, John. There's no escaping this point.

IF Schwartz was telling the truth, then the chances are that BS Man was her killer. Pretty unlikely to me that another man conveniently entered the scene minutes later. It's ludicrous to think that Stride willingly went into the darkness of the yard with this same man and let her guard down to be killed.

[JeffHamm]

Extreme reasoning apart, I just don't see how it's remotely likely that Stride would have been holding onto the cachous for dear life, as if they were some valuable object, whilst being pulled into the street, spun round, and thrown to the ground. And I certainly don't think she would then enter ta pitch black passagway, voluntarily, with a man who'd just assaulted her! Not during the Ripper scare; She'd have to he insane!

Again, it depends upon how she falls, and pull and turn and push would be pretty quick, and if he's not hurling her around like a sock in a hurricane, then she may very well have held on to what she was holding. We know if she was holding them then she could not have fallen fully prone, not hands out, etc. but there are ways for her to have fallen without having to put a hand down (such as just to a knee), or to her right side and she puts her right hand down but not her left even. So it's not impossible for her to have held them through that, and once that is passed, BS or a newcomer, are faced with the same situation. A newcomer can get her into the passage with him, and BS may have followed her in while she tried the only route available to her to get away, into the alley and towards the door of the club. As I say, I don't think she's going into the passage "with" BS, she's trying to escape from him and he's blocked all other routes due to their position after he's spun her round. It's the only direction she has available, and if she's been there, she would know there's a door where she can go inside. Now if the fellow hasn't attacked her so violently that she hasn't dropped the cachous, which would have to be the case since she's still holding them, then she's also probably not in fear of her life, but she probably does want to get away from the fellow rough handling her. It would not be a JtR fear, but just another roughing up by someone (and remember, that's what's going on if BS leaves and a newcomer comes along - so if she's now comfy enough to take the newcomer into the alley, she brushed off that assault pretty quickly, which means she can't be all that fussed, so she probably isn't in fear of her life). This is what I mean, the newcomer story tends to require BS to be "not so scary", so if BS was not so scary, she's not going to be thinking JtR, and should couldn't have been roughed up too badly by that point, so she might not have dropped the cachous, etc.

Look, if some evidence turns up that shows that BS attacked her much more violently, then that closes out this line of possibility because it is based on the events described by Schwartz as not being rough enough to force her to drop the cachous, but unless something comes up that means this type of thing is still possible so BS cannot be ruled out. Doesn't have to be one's favorite scenario, but it fits the limited evidence we have, remains internally consistent, and it provides some limits that could falsify it if new evidence comes along. It also means that ruling out BS is not yet possible, but it doesn't mean BS must be JtR either. Just, he's still a candidate suspect. It also describes BS in a way that the newcomer hypothesis also would more or less have to desribe his actions (there's no marks of a violent throw to the ground, there's no screams of someone in fear for their life, and so forth). There are those who suggest the whole Schwartz testimony is part of an elaborate conspiracy and that the whole encounter never happened, but that idea falls down because it's not internally consistent with Schwartz's testimony.

Anyway, as I say, I'm not saying this must be what happened, only that it could have happened this way and would fit the evidence we have.

- Jeff

[John G]

I wonder whether the police put this incident down to Stride being rejected by a potential customer, probably something that occurred quite regularly. She probably just laughed it off, brushed herself down and moved on to the next. Schwatz being relatively new to the country may not have been used to seeing this kind of behaviour, freaked out a little and ran off, maybe getting the 'Lipski' insult for staring a little too much at BS man who could have been a bit embarrassed?

As I alluded to in the previous post we potentially have a significant amount of time between the 'assault/pushing incident and Stride ending up in the yard. No witnesses for this time. Easy for the murderer to emerge from the shadows or side street where he has been watching everything. He has plenty of time to pick the exact moment to make his appearance. Maybe he used the incident to start chatting to Stride, helps her up, puts her at ease by offering her sweets and then lures her or she lures him to the yard.

Yes, I agree. It's perfectly possible that Stride met someone else after BS Man. However, as I alluded to in my earlier post, there's something definitely amiss with Scwartz: such as why was he never utilized as a witness? Why did Abberline say that no one who saw the Ripper viewed him from the front-when he was obviously aware of Schwartz, and we know he believed Stride was Ripper victim.

[John G]

Depends upon how she fell and how violent the pulling and turning etc was (obviously enough to move her, but that doesn't mean it was a full on judo throw). If her fall was something like down to one knee, etc, then she would not drop them. And importantly for our considerations, we don't know how she fell, so all possibilities that fit the data are open. So, if she had the cachous in her hand when she was pulled and turned and put to the ground, then she couldn't have fallen such that she used her left hand, at least, to break her fall. And it is possible to fall in such a way. Yes, we can also imagine those events being far more violent, whereby she would have dropped them. But as she didn't, we know those descriptions cannot be the case. What we cannot do is rule out less violent pulls and throws and falls, we cannot be sure she wasn't holding them all along, we can only be sure that if she was, she didn't drop them, and so that constrains what that encounter would have had to be like if it happened that way (note, please, I'm not saying it had to be this way - I'm just saying it is a viable hypothesis that we cannot exclude). If she was thrown violently to the ground, had to break her fall with her hands, there would be road rash on her hands, and that is not reported in the medical notes. There aren't signs of a violent fall to the ground where she had to shield herself from the fall, so that lack of evidence for these violent face plant type descriptions excludes them, but not the less violent type, which are the ones where she can retain hold of them.

Also, how do we know her killer didn't put the cachous in her hand after killing her? I doubt that's the case, but if we're only going to imagine the pulling and throwing to be more violent in order to get her to drop them despite there being no evidence for her having had a violent fall to the ground, then prove to me she was holding them when alive rather than her killer putting them there as some sort of token.

- Jeff

Extreme reasoning apart, I just don't see how it's remotely likely that Stride would have been holding onto the cachous for dear life, as if they were some valuable object, whilst being pulled into the street, spun round, and thrown to the ground. And I certainly don't think she would then enter ta pitch black passagway, voluntarily, with a man who'd just assaulted her! Not during the Ripper scare; She'd have to he insane!