For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

Regarding a woman soliciting, what does it take to reach the conclusion that she was more likely than not doing so? Does she have to be holding a sign saying "I am soliciting" or wearing a day glow orange hunting vest or something similar to indicate what she was up to?

And again, a point the no evidence of soliciting crowd simply ignores is that even if they did not go out that evening with the intention of soliciting we have absolutely no idea of their response should they be approached and offered a generous inducement.

c.d.

[c.d.]

These imagined scenarios where Stride is running for her life while certainly possible are also time consuming. The B.S. man had just seen Schwartz and the Pipe Man run off presumably to find the nearest PC who was now on his way to the scene. In terms of self preservation, the best thing for the B.S. man to do was get the hell out of there as quickly as possible.

And these same scenarios have Stride being roughly handled trying to escape or being pulled back into the yard yet she holds on to the cachous and her clothes are not torn or disheveled. Does this seem probable?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

While the descriptions of BS and Lawende's suspect could be of the same person, both are fairly generic. Peaked caps and dark clothing were not exactly uncommon after all. But, that aside, the fact that the two descriptions are not clearly of two different attackers again, leaves open for consideration the possibility that Stride's killer and Eddowes' killer are one in the same, both being BS.

And before anyone thinks "but they could have been different people", I'm just saying that possibility remains open as viable, not insisting it is true or the only possibility that is viable, so yes, it could have been two different people too because the descriptions are so common they could overlap easily. But it doesn't preclude either, so again, much like the cachous evidence, it can be explained if BS was, or was not, her attacker. it doesn't allow us to exclude lines of inquiry, which is the point I've been trying to make but for someone reason people are treating it as if I'm insisting the attack did go down as I've suggested, which I think I'm being clear that's not what I'm saying.

- Jeff

I got you jeff. But the fact that marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and company along with the anon church st sighting all describe basically the same man all wearing a peaked cap and its pretty much a done deal. I dont care how common peaked caps were when you have 5 seperate and reliable witnesses saying the man was wearing a peaked cap... i mean come on what are the chances. One sighting, lawende and company is three men together and one the curchst sighting was inbetween the two murders in location at the right time and in the paper before any other of the descriptions were.

plus apperently it made an impression on abberline who also thought the ripper wore a peaked cap.

the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event. Its a no brainer.

[JeffHamm]

I got you jeff. But the fact that marshall, smith, schwartz, lawende and company along with the anon church st sighting all describe basically the same man all wearing a peaked cap and its pretty much a done deal. I dont care how common peaked caps were when you have 5 seperate and reliable witnesses saying the man was wearing a peaked cap... i mean come on what are the chances. One sighting, lawende and company is three men together and one the curchst sighting was inbetween the two murders in location at the right time and in the paper before any other of the descriptions were.

plus apperently it made an impression on abberline who also thought the ripper wore a peaked cap.

the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event. Its a no brainer.

Hi Abby Normal,

Well, the chances of 3 different people wearing peaked caps is entirely dependent upon how common peaked caps were, so I think we have to care how common they were. I don't know how common they were, so I'll make up a range of numbers just to illustrate the point. Let's say 90% of the men wore peaked caps (highly improbable of course), then the chances of 3 totally unrelated people are wearing peaked caps would be around 73%. If 75% wore them then we're at about 42% chance. If 50% of men wore peaked caps, then random chance is is still 12.5%. If 25% of the men wore peaked caps, we're down to about 1.5%.

I have no idea how common peaked caps were, but I don't think they were rare, and I believe most men did wear hats of some sort. Now even 25% isn't rare by any means, but if they were more common than that, then the chance probability starts getting high enough that caution is called for.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Fashion is not my forte, but the peak of a cap is just the front brim (like on a baseball cap). I think a "peaked cap" refers to a hat where the brim is just to the front, like what the cartoon character Andy Cap used to wear. These would come in a number of variations though, and my understanding is that they were common. It might also be used to describe quite different looking hats, like a "captain's hat", again, where the brim is just to the front and doesn't run around the whole hat (like a fedora). There's probably a thread on this somewhere, but without knowing for sure, I've always had the impression that the description "peaked cap/hat" is a pretty generic description that could describe a very wide range of otherwise quite different looking hats. But as I say, I don't know if that's correct or not.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Forensically, the position of the body and the cachous doesn't add up with your scenario. Are we to assume that Stride kept hold of the cachous as she was floored by BS Man and then chased into the yard? If she was indeed killed escaping into the yard, why was her body facing the gates? If anything, the forensics point to Stride exiting the yard with her guard down, before she was killed swiftly and suddenly.

You don't think she might have been facing the wall when she was attacked, then?

[Wickerman]

So you're saying that Stride kept hold of the cachous as she was thrown to the floor. Didn't let go of them to cushion her fall? And kept hold of them as her killer chased her into the darkness of the yard? Do you think most women fearing for their lives would run into a yard at night time instead of onto the streets for help from the nearest citizen or policeman?

Or did she stop to freshen her breath as BS Man was chasing her into the yard?

You can't get away from those damn cachous, I'm afraid. They point to a woman who was killed swiftly and suddenly. Schwartz describes a woman that was being harassed and manhandled moments before her death.

I think the simplest answer to the cachous problem is, they were on the ground before Liz was killed.
She may have dropped them as she was assaulted, assuming they were hers to begin with.
Liz happened to fall to the ground and her left hand fell beside the packet of cachous. As her fingers began to clench the packet became trapped between her thumb and forefinger. The doctors just assumed they had been in her hand, when in fact they had been on the ground before she fell.

It was the medical opinion that the killer used the scarf to choke her from behind before slashing her throat. If this happened as she was fleeing into the yard to the club door, her head would be facing the gate, not the other way around. Try to reconstruct the scenario for yourself and see.

Quite consistent with her being attacked from behind, as she faced the wall.

[Wickerman]

I don't know the answer to this but does "peaked cap" describe one very distinctive type of hat or does it simply describe a style of hat that could have variations?

c.d.

Ah for sure, hundreds if not thousands of variations of a peaked cap. not only a wide rage of British styles, but Russian styles, Jewish styles, French, German, there's also military styles, seaman styles, etc.

Look at all the different styles here...



and here...

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

So I guess the question now is what are we to make of the description of someone wearing a peaked hat? It would seem we really have no way of determining exactly what the witness was describing. I guess we could look at random street scenes from 1888 and try to determine how prevalent it was for a man to wear a hat and then try to determine how many of those hats could be described as peaked and if a particular style was most prevalent. Even then we would really just be guessing.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Well, from those two photos, counting anything like a "tam" (no brim) or with a full brim around the head as being "not peaked" and the rest are "peaked caps", it looks like there's 24 "peaked caps" and 14 "not". (so about 63% are peaked; and nobody is without a hat). If that is a close approximation to the general population, then that would mean there's a 25% chance of spotting 3 different people all wearing peaked caps.

- Jeff

Sorry, top photo, forth from the left, I first saw that as peaked, but it might just be a knitted cap. That would make it around 21.6% chance rate. In either case, caution recommended.

[APerno]

I think the simplest answer to the cachous problem is, they were on the ground before Liz was killed.
She may have dropped them as she was assaulted, assuming they were hers to begin with.
Liz happened to fall to the ground and her left hand fell beside the packet of cachous. As her fingers began to clench the packet became trapped between her thumb and forefinger. The doctors just assumed they had been in her hand, when in fact they had been on the ground before she fell.

Were not the cachous considered a luxury and normally out of the economic reach of the working class poor; that it would be unlikely for such a valued item to be cast to the ground uneaten? Or is this not true?

[APerno]

From the look of those pictures I would conclude that the sighting of three different men wearing a peaked cap offers no argument that the witnesses saw the same man. I foolishly always thought 'peak cap' meant something far more particular; something British that I didn't understand. I think maybe I always envisioned a Deerstalker, or at least some particular sailor's cap; something special the witnesses saw. Now with this definition of a peak cap the peak cap sightings seem meaningless.

[JeffHamm]

Hmmm, thinking about it, "peaked cap" could be used in the UK differently than I'm thinking. If it doesn't count things like the "cheese cutter" (Andy Cap type hats), and just things like the fellows in the top photo in positions 5, 7, and 8 from the left, then that would change the odds quite a bit as there's only about 6 over the two photos (and that's being generous by calling #2 and 3 from the left in the top photo as examples; with 2nd row 2nd from left in the bottom photo the only example there), making 3 unrelated sightings just over 1/2 of 1%, and that becomes far more interesting.

The difference in the estimates from the two photos, though, makes me wonder how representative they are. But there are photos around from the period one could sample from, so some sort of estimate might be possible. Probably a good idea to try and work out the odds, rather than debate based upon our personal guesses of what the proportions would be.

- Jeff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah for sure, hundreds if not thousands of variations of a peaked cap. not only a wide rage of British styles, but Russian styles, Jewish styles, French, German, there's also military styles, seaman styles, etc.

Look at all the different styles here...



and here...

I’m just wondering why only the second of those two pictures is visible on my screen? It doesn’t really matter as the second picture illustrates the point perfectly.