For what reason do we include Stride?

[John G]

We DO know that John. They both admitted as much to witness friends of theirs. Polly and Annie were out earning their doss after midnight, there were very few other ways they could do that. Taken by surprise can be a result of sudden, momentary anger, and in fact Liz Strides wound matches another throat cutting that same night, the third, and that was a domestic murder.

The Ripper, based on the first alleged Ripper victims, sought out women actively working the streets late at night, alone. He subdued them quietly..we don't know silently for sure...and he cuts their throats twice. The next step is to have them flat on their back, legs parted, raise the skirts and mutilate their abdomens. In both of those 2 cases the women were physically compromised, Polly was drunk, and Annie was ill. That also might be a factor in his choices. Liz had a single cut, and was left in the position she fell in, on her side, her legs curled slightly in...resembling a fetal position.

Stride was subdued quietly. She was clearly at ease with her killer, hence the cachous, which doesn't gel at all with a domestic confrontation.

The other throat cutting murder that night took place indoors, as you would expect for a domestic incident: not a outdoors, in pitch black darkness.

Stride's throat had been deeply gashed, indicating overkill, JtR's signature. The severing of the windpipe would have prevented the victim from crying out, suggesting a planned murder. The presence of the scsrf may have impeded the killer from making an even more extensive cut.

We don't know that either Polly or Annie were soliciting at the time of the attacks. Stride waa a registered prostitute in Sweden, and appears to have been seen with more than one man that night, suggesting she may have been soliciting.

Lack of mutilations could be explained by the killer being disturbed, i.e. by Louis D.

[Michael W Richards]

No? So he was summoned to the body of Stride by two jews shouting "Police, murder!" at the same time as PC Smith saw her alive, ten minutes before Schwartz sighting, ten minutes before even your embarrassingly inept conspiracy apparently occurred? Was he also spot on with his estimate when he said the police arrived 5 minutes after he himself did?



So who was the woman who lived two doors from the club (just like Fanny), who stood at the doorstep for ten minutes shortly before 1am (just like Fanny) and who heard a horse and cart go past 4 minutes after going inside?
It sure sounds a lot like Fanny, but whoever she is, her tale does seem to corroborate Louis' timing.



I wish you'd name these witnesses.



True. Louis, for instance. But of course, he was lying. Unlike the other club members.

The witnesses that said they were by the body at around 12:45 were Kozebrodski, Heshberg and Gillen. Their statements are in the witness files here. And of course Spooner. I said his estimates were fine.."I live at 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper at Messrs. Meredith's. Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street. I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews."

Note what he saw when he got there. About 15 people. If it took him 20 minutes to walk there from the Commercial Street pub, and 25 minutes with the woman outside the Beehive, his estimate was that around 12:45 he saw the Jews running for help. There is no way he was 20 minutes early in his estimate, not with corroborating accounts.

The witness who heard that cart and horse was Fanny. And she heard it after going back inside at 1, and there is no indication whether the cart and horse were coming or going. See if you can locate a report that states the horse and cart were still inside the passageway, or had been offloaded in the yard, when the police were there.

[Michael W Richards]

The murder of Elizabeth Stride has long been considered the odd one out of the 'canonical five' murders. Down the years she has been ruled in and out by numerous Ripper authors and amateur sleuths but the consensus seems to be that she was probably a victim of the serial killer known as 'Jack the Ripper'.

The question is why?

Stride's throat was cut less than an hour before a Ripper-esque murder. Sure, the timing is convenient, but life is full of strange coincidences. The Ripper case certainly isn't an exception to happenstance, e.g. Eddowes giving the same name to the police as the next victim, and Sarah Brown having her throat cut in a domestic on the night of the Double Event.

The lack of mutilations. These are largely attributed to an interruption, hence the savagery of Eddowes' attack by an assumed frustrated Ripper. This is purely speculative. If mutilation was the key, why would the killer attack his victim next to a busy social club? Furthermore, the eyewitness description given by Schwartz of Stride's assailant doesn't jive with the previous murders. And if this man wasn't Stride's killer, it only leaves a small window of opportunity for another murderer to enter stage left.

All we have are two women that are murdered within an hour of each other. Both of them have their throats cut but aside than that there is no evidence that the two murders are related.

I just re-read your intro Harry and agree completely.

[Michael W Richards]

Wr don't know that any of the victims were soliciting. Like the other victims it seems obvious that she was taken by suprise, given no opportunity to resist or cry out. Not the hallmarks of a domestic murder.

We DO know that John. They both admitted as much to witness friends of theirs. Polly and Annie were out earning their doss after midnight, there were very few other ways they could do that. Taken by surprise can be a result of sudden, momentary anger, and in fact Liz Strides wound matches another throat cutting that same night, the third, and that was a domestic murder.

The Ripper, based on the first alleged Ripper victims, sought out women actively working the streets late at night, alone. He subdued them quietly..we don't know silently for sure...and he cuts their throats twice. The next step is to have them flat on their back, legs parted, raise the skirts and mutilate their abdomens. In both of those 2 cases the women were physically compromised, Polly was drunk, and Annie was ill. That also might be a factor in his choices. Liz had a single cut, and was left in the position she fell in, on her side, her legs curled slightly in...resembling a fetal position.

[John G]

Stride has none of the hallmarks...we don't know Liz was soliciting, there is a single cut and an undisturbed victim from that point. Just those 2 factors are enough to count the Ripper out.

Wr don't know that any of the victims were soliciting. Like the other victims it seems obvious that she was taken by suprise, given no opportunity to resist or cry out. Not the hallmarks of a domestic murder.

[Michael W Richards]

On the face of it, the Stride murder had all the hallmarks of a Ripper killing if BS Man is excluded: victim caught by surprise by a perpetrator who lured her into the passageway-suggesting that he had enough social skills to put Stride at her ease-and then quickly overpowered her, giving the victim little opportunity to respond.

It's possible that someone from the club was involved, such as a boyfriend she'd arranged to meet, although the murder seems to have been too efficiently carried out for, say, an unplanned domestic murder.

On balance, I think Scwartz lied but that he probably did so of his own volition, i.e. without the involvement of the club.

Stride has none of the hallmarks...we don't know Liz was soliciting, there is a single cut and an undisturbed victim from that point. Just those 2 factors are enough to count the Ripper out.

[Joshua Rogan]

Spooner wasn't out with his estimate

No? So he was summoned to the body of Stride by two jews shouting "Police, murder!" at the same time as PC Smith saw her alive, ten minutes before Schwartz sighting, ten minutes before even your embarrassingly inept conspiracy apparently occurred? Was he also spot on with his estimate when he said the police arrived 5 minutes after he himself did?

...Louis's assertion he arrived precisely at 1am...something which cannot be reconciled with the fact that from 12:50 until 1am Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously and heard or saw no incoming cart and horse.

So who was the woman who lived two doors from the club (just like Fanny), who stood at the doorstep for ten minutes shortly before 1am (just like Fanny) and who heard a horse and cart go past 4 minutes after going inside?
It sure sounds a lot like Fanny, but whoever she is, her tale does seem to corroborate Louis' timing.

There are 2 witnesses who were inside the club and claimed to be by Louis and the body at 12:45, one of them had only returned to the club at 12:30 and checked a clock inside to verify the time, He says 10 minutes later he heard Louis was calling for him.

I wish you'd name these witnesses.

Not all the witnesses had no access to clocks.

True. Louis, for instance. But of course, he was lying. Unlike the other club members.

[Michael W Richards]

to the club conspiracy theorists:

in your opinion-she was killed by someone from the club?
or they had nothing to do with it, but still engaged in the conspiracy just because she was found on their premise?

Probably the second for me Abby. I think a scenario like this is most plausible...that they hired security that night, I think Liz was hired to be there to clean by someone that she already did regular cleaning for, or, that she was there to meet someone.."among the Jews"...I think the thug either propositioned her, or questioned her about why she was there, she might have mouthed off at him before turning to head out the gates, and in an angry brutish gesture, he pulled her off balance with her scarf and then slit her throat while holding the scarf tight. Then he dropped her. 2 seconds.

I also think its possible Israel saw some or all of this when he left the club via the kitchen side door. I believe his story incorporates some of those details.

[John G]

On the face of it, the Stride murder had all the hallmarks of a Ripper killing if BS Man is excluded: victim caught by surprise by a perpetrator who lured her into the passageway-suggesting that he had enough social skills to put Stride at her ease-and then quickly overpowered her, giving the victim little opportunity to respond.

It's possible that someone from the club was involved, such as a boyfriend she'd arranged to meet, although the murder seems to have been too efficiently carried out for, say, an unplanned domestic murder.

On balance, I think Scwartz lied but that he probably did so of his own volition, i.e. without the involvement of the club.

[Abby Normal]

to the club conspiracy theorists:

in your opinion-she was killed by someone from the club?
or they had nothing to do with it, but still engaged in the conspiracy just because she was found on their premise?

[Michael W Richards]

Not very, I'd say. Unless they had a specific reason and/or opportunity to note the time. Spooner, for instance, hanging around on the street chatting to his sweetheart, said;
"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses."
And when he accompanied Diemschutz to the club;
"I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard."
However, there is some debate over what time the pubs closed (00:00 or 00:30) so it might explain why he was so out with his estimate.

Spooner wasn't out with his estimate, he was told he was when compared with Louis's assertion he arrived precisely at 1am...something which cannot be reconciled with the fact that from 12:50 until 1am Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously and heard or saw no incoming cart and horse. The pub Spooner says they left closed at 12:00am. There are 2 witnesses who were inside the club and claimed to be by Louis and the body at 12:45, one of them had only returned to the club at 12:30 and checked a clock inside to verify the time, He says 10 minutes later he heard Louis was calling for him. Not all the witnesses had no access to clocks.

[John G]

At the same time, constructing a false witness to mislead the investigation.

According to Schwartz, Liz was manhandled and thrown to the ground by some thug. Minutes later she's dead in the yard. There was no sign of a struggle, the cachous were still in her hand, no one else heard or saw anything to corroborate Schwarz's story. Everything points to Liz being killed suddenly, without warning. Hard to believe that Liz would enter in the blackness of the yard with her guard down with the same man who moments earlier roughed her up. People will proffer theories in order to reconcile the two but imo none of them wash. Funny how people have no problem handwaving that issue, but to suppose that an immigrant jew would bend the truth to protect his own kin? Preposterous!

Excellent post, which I completely agree with. I would add that Schwartz was not utilized subsequently in the investigation, i.e. to identify suspects, and Abberline later remarked that no witness had seen the killer from the front. All off this suggests that Schwartz was seriously undermined.

[Joshua Rogan]

A question on times? How accurate do you think the witnesses were in giving times for the events they observed? I am presuming they did not all have time pieces, so were in general 'guesstimating'. I ask as, certainly in Stride's case minutes, even seconds are vital in terms of putting everything into some kind of logical order.

Not very, I'd say. Unless they had a specific reason and/or opportunity to note the time. Spooner, for instance, hanging around on the street chatting to his sweetheart, said;
"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses."
And when he accompanied Diemschutz to the club;
"I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard."
However, there is some debate over what time the pubs closed (00:00 or 00:30) so it might explain why he was so out with his estimate.

[APerno]

Except for, you know, the blood.

And imagine if some random passer-by got around the corner to see a bunch of Jews rolling a corpse onto the street.

Has anyone ever chanced making a JTR comedy? I am not aware of one; absolutely a very dark/black/irreverent comedy no doubt. The recent Will Ferrell film (Holmes and Watson) which tried to get laughs with a Dorset Street parody fell flat, but a bunch of confused, panicked, bickering Jews trying to move a dead body has laugh potential, especially if they are 'rolling' it into the street.

[Sam Flynn]

A question on times? How accurate do you think the witnesses were in giving times for the events they observed? I am presuming they did not all have time pieces, so were in general 'guesstimating'. I ask as, certainly in Stride's case minutes, even seconds are vital in terms of putting everything into some kind of logical order.

Hello Losmandris, and welcome to the boards. You're quite right about the "guesstimating", as not many of the witnesses would have had timepieces of their own, either on their person or at home. Even doctors and police might have used approximations on occasion, as is perhaps evident from some of the "round figures" given for timings. To be fair, "about quarter to X" or "just after Y" would have been good enough for most people's purposes - it still is, in fact.