For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

Hi c.d.
I want to say that one of the odd little mysteries of this case was the cachous paper. I'm no expert on the cachous industry but it seems like, if Liz had purchased them, the seller could have been traced by the cachous paper wrapping. However I can't say with certainty that this was the case, I'd have to work to remember where I saw that note.

[Wickerman]

The Schwartz, PC Smith sighting happened some 15 minutes before Deimshutz entered the yard, so yes he had ample time to mutilate

Yes, the PC Smith encounter was placed about 12:35, but the Schwartz encounter was 12:45, then Diemschitz turns up at 1:00am.

I think we have always timed her attack directly subsequent to Schwartz running away, which may be a mistake.

Blackwell said he estimated her death to be 20-30 minutes before he showed up at 1:16.
So, at the latest that would be the 20 min. option placing her death/attack at 12:56.

Diemschitz rumbles through the gate at 1:00am (give or take).

The killer had only minutes and must have heard the clip-clop of a cart getting closer.

If we take the 30 min. option then yes, he may have had time to mutilate.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

We probably expect different things. In my view it is necessary to describe a cut and follow that cut to it's termination. This is easier for medical professionals to understand. This is why he described one superficial cut, from start to finish (left to right). Then began again at the left with the next cut. The fact he omitted to prefix each statement with "cut 1" and "cut 2" has thrown us off.

By the way, you mentioned some potential inaccuracy in the way the press may have recorded what was said. I actually used the court record written by the Coroner so as to avoid potential press errors.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes, I agree that the court records are the source to rely on, so thanks for pointing that out. And indeed, we all view and interpret descriptions of events based upon our own expectations and idiosyncratic uses of language, and also have to remember that the same applies to the speaker/writer. Language use, and such, differs today from Victorian times in subtle ways and styles of presentation.

Anyway, the diagram seems to have cleared it up, and I wish I had located it earlier but greatly appreciate your posting it here.

Interesting how both cuts seem to meet at a common point (left side of the image). It strikes me as if the superficial cut, which I'm assuming was the 2nd made, could have been made in the reverse direction, like a "return slash", but that's neither here nor there really.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

But if Stride has the cachous in her hand (and remember they are only wrapped in tissue paper) how likely is it that they survive her being pushed to the ground if she puts out her hands flat to break her fall which is what people do naturally? And if she again spreads her hands and puts her weight on them in order to push her self back up (again a natural reaction) they have to withstand that as well. And if she is being dragged into the yard to her death is her first thought I really need to protect these cachous? When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

So, his presentation does appear to jump back and forth, which I find an odd sequence of presentation, but again, spoken language is odd like that at times.

Hi Jeff.

We probably expect different things. In my view it is necessary to describe a cut and follow that cut to it's termination. This is easier for medical professionals to understand. This is why he described one superficial cut, from start to finish (left to right). Then began again at the left with the next cut. The fact he omitted to prefix each statement with "cut 1" and "cut 2" has thrown us off.

By the way, you mentioned some potential inaccuracy in the way the press may have recorded what was said. I actually used the court record written by the Coroner so as to avoid potential press errors.

[Robert St Devil]

It makes more sense that Stride had the cachous because she was with a punter or suitor moments before her death and her guard was down, than ending up there with them still in hand after she assaulted.

It just occurred to me something Michael posted, about cigarette makers living in the yard. And, then, cachous being described as breath freshers for smokers. Could it be that Jack's lure was to smoke a cigarette with Liz there in the gateway?
* I think a cigarette case was found at the Eddowes' murder site too.

Also, I was thinking, if he doesn't kill Liz but goes on to murder Catherine (for those that connect C3 to C4), wouldn't he be leaving a living witness against himself? One who could describe him.

[c.d.]

You're right, point taken.

Yes, but here is the problem with that theory. The police didn't know who the Ripper was. They never were able to assign a name to his identity. In other words, the police never said well Kidney or Barnett couldn't have killed those women because it was Joe Smith the Ripper. How did they know that Kidney or Barnett were not the Ripper?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

"I guess, for me, getting rid of BS doesn't seem to actually solve the cachous, if they're even a problem requiring solving, and the location is entirely consistent with where BS was reported to have been roughing her up."

Hello Jeff,

Getting rid of the BS man absolutely gets rid of the cachous problem as it explains how the cachous survived being pushed to the ground, getting up from the ground and trying to fend off the BS man as he was trying to drag her into the yard. The answer is that she didn't have them in her hand during the incident Schwartz describes but only took them out later after the BS man left and she had calmed down.

You say BS man was reported to have been "roughing her up." Are you equating that with the BS man simply pushing her to the ground as Schwartz describes?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

I'm of a different opinion on that. We know Stride had two bruises under each collar bone from the medical reports, and these would suggest that the "pushing" involved strikes against her hard enough to leave those marks. BS actions account for those, but indicate this is more than just a pushing away of someone making an unwanted proposition. Also, if that is all BS was doing, the incident as described by Schwartz is more prolonged than called for if BS is simply getting rid of an unwanted advance.

Also, we don't know when Stride put the cachous in her hand to begin with. It seems to me, though, if she's holding them when BS starts his manhandling of her, she would grasp them. And as he appears willing to continue doing so once Schwartz and Pipeman are spotted, I see no reason to conclude he isn't willing to continue to do after they leave. Yes, I can see why that might not be the most rational decision, but neither is killing her (by BS or anyone else).

BS either then forces her into the alley, or she gets away and escapes into it, still holding the cachous, which there has been no opportunity to re-pocket. If she flees, he grabs her scarf, tightening it, and perhaps causing her to fall but she doesn't drop them. He then cuts her throat, an escalation she was not expecting (given the pushing and shoving, while violent enough to bruise her, has been argued to be not apparently murderous in intensity).

And if it's JtR, the attack went poorly as compared to his previous, there's too much activity in the streets (Schwartz, Pipeman), there's the sound of people in the club (unlike Hanbury Street, where all were still sleeping), so he leaves. Shortly thereafter, Deimshutz shows up.

Something like the above accounts for why she's holding them. Otherwise, BS leaves, another person comes along, she's comfortable enough after having been pushed around and thrown to the ground in this location to entertain this newcommer, who then must get her to the ground by some violent means by which again she does not drop the cachous. The same problem again exists. I don't see how, or why, replacing BS with someone else who assaults her while she's holding the cachous makes any real difference, particularly as this newcommer is supposed to assault her even more violently than BS.

Obviously, we see that differently, but that's the nature of having little evidence, we have to speculate on how events unfolded, and those speculations will either seem plausible or not to different people. I find the above to be plausible (not saying it's correct, just saying it's plausible), but that's an opinion, and those vary from person to person.

- Jeff

[Robert St Devil]

...Also, why are you asssuming that if it WAS 3-5 separate killers that they would all be murders of strangers? One could imagine one man killing Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes, then Kidney killing Stride, and Barnett killing Kelly, for instance . And they don't get caught because the police, press, coroners and witnesses are all caught up in the Ripper Hysteria. Again, this is not my actual theory of what happened, I'm just making a point that the links between the canonical five are ALL at least a little bit up to questioning.

You're right, point taken.

[c.d.]

"I guess, for me, getting rid of BS doesn't seem to actually solve the cachous, if they're even a problem requiring solving, and the location is entirely consistent with where BS was reported to have been roughing her up."

Hello Jeff,

Getting rid of the BS man absolutely gets rid of the cachous problem as it explains how the cachous survived being pushed to the ground, getting up from the ground and trying to fend off the BS man as he was trying to drag her into the yard. The answer is that she didn't have them in her hand during the incident Schwartz describes but only took them out later after the BS man left and she had calmed down.

You say BS man was reported to have been "roughing her up." Are you equating that with the BS man simply pushing her to the ground as Schwartz describes?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Wickerman,

Ah, there's the diagram, thanks for that. Hmmmm, might be best to ignore my above, as I see what you're getting at now. There does appear to be a 2nd cut below the major one (running slightly upwards from right to left of the image).

I'm happy to see that as a correction as I only recalled the one (and couldn't find a copy of the diagram).

So, his presentation does appear to jump back and forth, which I find an odd sequence of presentation, but again, spoken language is odd like that at times.

Anyway, given the diagram is not as I recalled it (memory is a horribly error prone thing), and does show a 2nd injury, then I'm happy to correct what was only an opinion from above in light of the more objective evidence. And no, I don't think arguing that it's a mistake is viable, given his job was to record the injuries. That's why above, where I erroneously thought the diagram only showed one injury, I was not comfortable in presuming he "left one out". That same discomfort prevents me from considering the idea that he "put one in", therefore, the error is mine.

Cheers for that.

- Jeff

[Observer]

He didn't have time. I can't think of a good argument against an interruption. Opinions may differ on what that interruption was.

The Schwartz, PC Smith sighting happened some 15 minutes before Deimshutz entered the yard, so yes he had ample time to mutilate

[c.d.]

"I do. absolutely. the chances she was assaulted by one man only to be murdered by another man moments later is practally nil. ask any cop-its unheard of."

Hello Abby,

It was minutes later not moments. And if the cop you asked was Swanson, he would say another man was quite possible as he indicated in his report.

c.d.

[c.d.]

We have every reason to doubt Schwartz.

There is no evidence that Liz was dragged or forced into the yard. No defensive wounds, no abrasions, clothes undisturbed. Didn't drop a single cachou the entire time. No one else could corroborate Schwartz's narrative. No one else heard the altercation between the two. You believe that after her tussle with BS Man, Liz went willingly into the shadows with her guard down? Now that's insanity!

Hello Harry,

You seem to be conflating Schwartz's story with details of her death. He only saw her being pushed. He does not describe her murder.

c.d.