For what reason do we include Stride?

[Sam Flynn]

Nor a commonly used item when soliciting dockers just getting off work Sam.

If cachous were only a ha'penny a bag or thereabouts, which I suspect is a reasonable guess, that hardly marks them out as luxury goods.

Incidentally, most of us have encountered Stride's "cachous" with the oft-quoted description that they were used to "sweeten the breath", but they were often - perhaps primarily? - medicinal in nature. At a mundane level, perhaps the only reason she had them was because she had a cold or a sore throat; it was a wet September, after all, and such infections must have been common in the lodging-houses.

[APerno]

1. Never said Schwartz was a member of the club. He may have been 'connected' to members and decided to take one for the tribe.
2. Never said that a club member killed Stride, although it's entirely possible. They just knew it didn't look good to have a murder victim next to their club when the Whitechapel series was fuelling the antisemitism in the area.
3. It has crossed my mind before that Schwartz could've been the killer, but I don't see what he had to gain from inserting himself into the investigation.

I take it we don't know who the "friend" was who acted as interpreter for Schwartz? I've seen it speculated that it was Woolf Wess, member of the IWEC, who acted in the same capacity for Leon Goldstein.

Don't mean to run too far down the road with this, but you know how Serial Killers like to reappear at murder sites and at times even like to engage the police, e.g. Leopold-Loeb.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't imagine that cachous were particularly luxurious or expensive.

Nor a commonly used item when soliciting dockers just getting off work Sam. Added to the flower arrangement, and the lint brush request, you have someone paying attention to the details of their appearance,..hardly the East End streetwalker routine.

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding a woman soliciting, what does it take to reach the conclusion that she was more likely than not doing so? Does she have to be holding a sign saying "I am soliciting" or wearing a day glow orange hunting vest or something similar to indicate what she was up to?

And again, a point the no evidence of soliciting crowd simply ignores is that even if they did not go out that evening with the intention of soliciting we have absolutely no idea of their response should they be approached and offered a generous inducement.

c.d.

Missing the point here cd...we have evidence that the first 2 Canonical admitted that they were out "earning" after 1am, there were no other explanations as to how they intended to earn their doss other than solicitation. Polly even admitted she had earned and spent a few times already that night. Liz was standing just off a semi deserted street an hour after more than 3/4 of the attendees had left...so who was there to solicit?

[Michael W Richards]

Lack of mutilations could be explained by the killer being disturbed, i.e. by Louis D.

Could be, but that is not a warranted assumption based on the known evidence, there is no indication such an interruption took place. You all have to accept that if you want this victim to be a Ripper victim you need to find some evidence to explain the lack of mutilations.... aside from a supposed interruption.

[Harry D]

another for the cashoo crowd,Peaked Cap Deniers and conspiracy club ; ) (sorry just having a little fun with the labels)

but the question is serious-If Schwartz was making the story up ie lying about his involvement-why no putting him forth as the killer of stride? he was apparently a member of the club according to you all, and someone from the club was responsible for the murder, no? why not him? hes the perfect candidate.

according to you:
He puts himself there.
he lied.
it would explain cashoo in her hand (he was using her services in the yard).
he fits the jewish profile theory.
it explains why he tried to make fake bs man suspect a gentile (because he himself Schwartz is a jew).

or then why not Diemshitz as her killer a lot applies to him too?

if its a club conspiracy then which one of the club members did it? and why not Schwartz or diemshitz?

1. Never said Schwartz was a member of the club. He may have been 'connected' to members and decided to take one for the tribe.
2. Never said that a club member killed Stride, although it's entirely possible. They just knew it didn't look good to have a murder victim next to their club when the Whitechapel series was fuelling the antisemitism in the area.
3. It has crossed my mind before that Schwartz could've been the killer, but I don't see what he had to gain from inserting himself into the investigation.

I take it we don't know who the "friend" was who acted as interpreter for Schwartz? I've seen it speculated that it was Woolf Wess, member of the IWEC, who acted in the same capacity for Leon Goldstein.

[Scott Nelson]

Packer & PC Smith saw the same man with Stride about 12:30.

Not sure about this, but its possible.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Peaked Cap man seen with Eddowes?



I'd like to think some of these sketches contained factual information.
None of the witnesses mention a lamp at the Duke Street end of Church Passage, though it was common enough to have a lamp at the entrance to passages. There was a wall lamp at the entrance to Millers court where Astrachan stopped for a moment talking with Kelly.

Here's what Levy said about the lighting, in the MA's inquest coverage;

"The spot is better lighted now than it was prior to the morning of the murder. There is a better light at the club now than there used to be, and with the aid of the lamp a few yards off I could distinguish almost anybody. On the night in question, however, there was not sufficient light to enable me to distinguish the colour of the dress which the woman was wearing."

I'm not sure whether he is saying there were two lamps - one (not very bright one at the time) outside the club, and one a few yards away - or that the one at teh club was a few yards away when the group made their sighting.

[Wickerman]

The Peaked Cap man seen with Eddowes?



I'd like to think some of these sketches contained factual information.
None of the witnesses mention a lamp at the Duke Street end of Church Passage, though it was common enough to have a lamp at the entrance to passages. There was a wall lamp at the entrance to Millers court where Astrachan stopped for a moment talking with Kelly.

[Wickerman]

I'm not surprised. I know that here in the U.S. in the 1930s and 40s no self respecting man would go outside without a hat. The fedora style (think Bogart in Casablanca) was extremely popular. A description saying the suspect was wearing a fedora would probably be of similar value.

Too bad men's hats went out of style. I think they make a man look really sharp when he is dressed up. We have become a nation of slobs and now you see grown men wearing a baseball cap backwards. Jeez.

c.d.

Completely agree, I wear an Outback style all year round, but I never was one for following any trends. And there's my wife complaining "no-one wears hats these days".

[Wickerman]

Here is Packer, wearing a peaked cap - is Packer the murderer?




Interestingly (to me at least), we also have a contemporary drawing of the man seen by Packer



This is the same type of hat the suspect described by Best & Gardner was wearing only taller, but the same style.
It is also what PC Smith described initially, before he changed it to Deerstalker, though why I'll never know.
All three descriptions are roughly the same; Packer & PC Smith saw the same man with Stride about 12:30.

[Joshua Rogan]

Nobody ever wears a fedora backwards

[c.d.]

I found a few market scenes with lots of men in peaked caps. It's really just too generic to be used to identify anyone.

I'm not surprised. I know that here in the U.S. in the 1930s and 40s no self respecting man would go outside without a hat. The fedora style (think Bogart in Casablanca) was extremely popular. A description saying the suspect was wearing a fedora would probably be of similar value.

Too bad men's hats went out of style. I think they make a man look really sharp when he is dressed up. We have become a nation of slobs and now you see grown men wearing a baseball cap backwards. Jeez.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wick,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

So I guess the question now is what are we to make of the description of someone wearing a peaked hat? It would seem we really have no way of determining exactly what the witness was describing. I guess we could look at random street scenes from 1888 and try to determine how prevalent it was for a man to wear a hat and then try to determine how many of those hats could be described as peaked and if a particular style was most prevalent. Even then we would really just be guessing.

c.d.

I found a few market scenes with lots of men in peaked caps. It's really just too generic to be used to identify anyone.

[JeffHamm]

Add in now the odds that the three unrelated sightings also included being seen with the same ripper victim?

That's already in there; you take the sightings based upon "watching" the victims, then the odds of the men sighted being 3 different men are worked out. We're not trying to work out the odds of spotting the victim at random.

- Jeff