For what reason do we include Stride?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could it have been possible that just as the killer had cut Stride’s throat someone opened the side door of the club possibly just for a minute of fresh air standing in the doorway? The killer, fearing that the man was coming into the yard, makes his escape. No one mentions standing at the doorway of course but they might just have feared being suspected of being involved and so kept quiet. There’s no evidence for this of course but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have happened.

[Darryl Kenyon]

So BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz not forgetting pipeman, in a street overlooked by a three storey building where the lights where on, a good old song and dance was happening which anyone passing down the street would hear. Plus where anyone could have looked out of the window at anytime to spot him dragging Liz into the yard before or after he had slit her throat. Not forgetting the fact that the light shining from the building would probably make the street better illuminated. Also Brown, Mortimer and Goldstein where probably all nearby at the relevant time not forgetting the comings and goings from the club. So Bs drags Liz into the street and chucks Liz on the floor where she screams before , beside all I said kills her.
Well if that is Jack or anyone else who killed her for that matter then stupidity does not come into it.
Regards Darryl

[JeffHamm]

Stride is the one I flip flop on as well. The lack of mutilations makes it unclear that she's part of the series. The wound to her throat is not a complete severing of both sides of the throat, as per Nichol's and Chapman. However, neither was Eddowes throat cut right down on both the left and right sides, with her wound much greater on the left than right, with the right cartoid artery only showing a small hole, while Stride's was not touched. The descriptions of the one wound in common between Stride and Eddowes sound very similar to me, with both sounding very different from Nichols and Chapman - but they also seem to have had 2 main cuts over the throat, and so Stride and Eddowes may only be showing the initial one as neither seems to have had the 2nd cut that encircles the entire neck. The timings between murders are not inconsistent with the distances required to be traveled, there are descriptions of people seen with the victims shortly before they were found murdered that are similar enough they could describe the same individual, and so forth. All reasons to consider the possiility they are by the same hand.

Stride's lack of mutilations is often explained by JtR being interrupted by Deimschutz. If Schwartz's sighting of BS man is not a fabrication (which some might feel was the view of the police as Schwartz was not at the inquest), then that places the assault on Stride as much as 15 minutes prior to Deimshutz's arrival. Eddowes murder and mutilation had less time than that for completion (the beat was 12-14 minutes to complete). I know BS man's actions seem clumsy and loud, but if JtR starts with manual strangulation, then there must be an initial attack of some sort and attacks are, well, violent and aggressive events. Schwartz's account even indicates there wasn't much noise. The idea that JtR's assaults were completely silent is probably a misconception, rather, they didn't result in enough noise to be noticeable or memorable - nothing out of the ordinary. The attack on Stride would fit that bill. And if she had the cachous out when the surprise attack happened, she may have dropped them when thrown to the ground, and picked them up in her left hand, or she may never have dropped them at all. Either way, when her attacker then grabbed her throat to strangle her, they're in her hand and she's held onto them (i.e. makes a fist and starts trying to hit him, or whatever).

Ok, still sort of could fit in. But if the attack happens 15 minutes before Deimschutz arrives, why the lack of mutilations? That's more than enough time, as per Eddowes. Deimshutz has to arrive just as JtR has killed Stride, which would have to be just about the time Schwartz also sees this initial attack, though we could allow 1 or 2 minutes to pass for JtR to get hold of Stride after throwing her down, and then strangling her, then hears the cart, then cuts her throat and leaves (create scenerio as you please). So if the time between Schwartz and Deimshutz is more than a minute or two, it starts looking odd that there are no mutilations, or even signs that he was going to (i.e. her dress was not raised up, etc). It looks like she was killed and her attacker fled immediately, and that doesn't sound very JtR to me.

The only other reason I can think of JtR leaving prior to Deimshutz's arrival is that, after having started his attack on Stride, which doesn't go as smoothly as the attack on either Nichols or Chapman previously, he realizes he's been spotted by Schwartz. He kills Stride as she could definitely identify him, and gets out of there, worried that Schwartz may be looking for police. He may even head off in the direction of Schwartz, looking for him to attack as well. Heading in that direction also leads to a route that would take him to where Eddowes is later encountered in about the right amount of time. So to me there is a plausible set of events that works, so I waffle as to which explanation is the right one as both "work", so to speak.

I know the above is focused mostly on the hypotheses of including Stride, but that's because excluding her requires much less explanation - she wasn't mutilated, she's the only victim south of Whitechapel Road, etc. Including her requires explanation, and I think there are explanations available that don't strain either the evidence we have, or require a lot of magical thinking.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper

I'd agree with you there, but not on the basis of any conspiracy theory involving club members. Chances are that Liz was killed by a gentile thug.

[Abby Normal]

Stride was a ripper victim and broad shoulders was the ripper. The final clue in this little sub mystery is the peaked cap, which all the relevant witnesses saw the suspect werimg that night.

cashoo red herring.

[Joshua Rogan]

These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

"The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html

In the Star, this description is attributed to Dr Blackwell. However, other papers only mention it generally, and in his inquest testimony, Blackwell describes them as;
"a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper."

Dr Phillips says she "held a packet of cachous in her hand"

Edward Spooner says "I noticed a bit of paper doubled up in her right hand", although everyone else says the left hand.

Abraham Heshburg in the Evening News 1 Oct says;
"In her hand there was a small piece of paper containing five or six cachous. "

[Herlock Sholmes]

The cashous indicate that she was surprise attacked which could include the ripper , the scarf evidence indicates that she was grabbed from behind by the scarf and that it was twisted tightly as the knife went across her throat why couldn’t this have been done by the ripper who just took advantage of the scarf, the location of the murder suggests that she felt entitled to be in that passageway at that time why would Liz have felt particularly entitled? Any more that AC felt entitled to be in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street , and the fact that another woman was killed in more "Ripper-like" fashion on the same night is the reason she is included in the Canon And the fact that it’s very plausible that the killer was disturbed provides a reason for the second murder. If you would like to include any murder that happened during those months Were there many throat-cutting prostitution murders?, no matter how dissimilar to Polly and Annie in both circumstantial evidence and physical evidence, and if you want to use a statement from an alledged witness to an altercation that is completely absent in the proceeding that was held to determine her manner of death Schwartz isn’t required. Liz was murdered, someone did it, that person might have been the ripper., and if you want to ignore that the Mens Club and some witnesses that night were considered anarchists by the local people and law enforcement, and that they attacked police with clubs in that yard less than 6 months later resulting in the arrest of at least 2 of the witnesses from the Double Event night Attacking the police with clubs during a demonstration is a world of difference from the ripper killings plus anarchists arent de facto liars ,....then you can consider any real answer to who killed Liz and why, beyond your grasp I.e. anyone that thinks that Stride was or even might have been the ripper is stupid.

Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper and many of the clubs senior staffers including the nights speaker definately lied about certain aspects of what actually transpired. Thanks for clearing that up then

The biggest issue in Ripperology is over-confidence. Stride might not have been killed by Jack but there’s nothing to justify stating this as a fact. That said, obviously you are entitled to feel as confident on the subject as you want to. ‘’Clearly’’ is a word that we can rarely be justified in using in this case.

[Leanne]

1880s sweets tin container:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163121558280?ul_noapp=true

[Leanne]

These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

"The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html

Victorian Cachous tin: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...pers-269910757

[JeffHamm]

The lack of pockets was more in reference to my grandmother's reason for doing so. And of course, her jackets would have pockets, but she did this anyway as it was convenient to keep them there. I could see breath mints being something one might want easy access too. And they would be stored in the left sleeve by a right handed person, who would use their right hand for putting them away and getting them out again.

Anyway, I just thought that using the sleeves as a storage area might have been something some people did at a time when cuffs could have been more tight fitting.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

Hello Jeff,

Mrs Stride had pockets, in which were;

• A key (as of a padlock)
• A small piece of lead pencil
• Six large and one small button
• A comb
• A broken piece of comb
• A metal spoon
• A hook (as from a dress)
• A piece of muslin
• One or two small pieces of paper

I can't remember, was she left handed, anyone?

[Michael W Richards]

No time to react? How long does it take to let go of a packet of sweets?

The cashous indicate that she was surprise attacked, the scarf evidence indicates that she was grabbed from behind by the scarf and that it was twisted tightly as the knife went across her throat, the location of the murder suggests that she felt entitled to be in that passageway at that time, and the fact that another woman was killed in more "Ripper-like" fashion on the same night is the reason she is included in the Canon. If you would like to include any murder that happened during those months, no matter how dissimilar to Polly and Annie in both circumstantial evidence and physical evidence, and if you want to use a statement from an alledged witness to an altercation that is completely absent in the proceeding that was held to determine her manner of death, and if you want to ignore that the Mens Club and some witnesses that night were considered anarchists by the local people and law enforcement, and that they attacked police with clubs in that yard less than 6 months later resulting in the arrest of at least 2 of the witnesses from the Double Event night,....then you can consider any real answer to who killed Liz and why, beyond your grasp.

Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper and many of the clubs senior staffers including the nights speaker definately lied about certain aspects of what actually transpired.

[JeffHamm]

I thought I would throw this out as a speculative suggestion. We know the cachous were found in her left hand, lodged between thumb and forefinger. The presumption, therefore, is that she was holding them when she was attacked.

I recall my grandmother used to tuck tissues up her sleeve, because the cuffs fit close and such things wouldn't fall out. They would be easy to access, and the lack of pockets on women's blouses and clothing in general, made this a convenient location. What if Stride did the same? The left sleeve was used as a sort of "pocket", where she kept the cachous, easily pulled out by her right hand. During the struggle when she's put to the ground, they become dislodged, fall out, either into her hand, and she ends up grasping them, or onto the ground and her hand ends up on top of them.

I'm certainly not convinced myself that's what happened, and I'm wondering if it sounds feasible as an explanation to others? Basically, it would mean that despite the cachous being found in her hand, she wasn't holding them during the attack.

- Jeff

[Rob1n]

Hello Pat,

Why does a crime of passion have to be limited to a non-Jack killer? I can see Jack overcome with a desire to kill this woman only to come to the realization a few minutes later that this was not a good place to do it and that he had made a mistake.

As for a domestic, I would expect an argument which nobody heard post Schwartz as well as a few slaps to the face in an escalation of anger. No evidence for either. Also no stabs to the body which would indicate uncontrollable anger. What happened seems all too controlled and calculated.

c.d.

I'm inclined to agree, it seems that Jack liked the risk factor, most, apart from the kelly murder were discovered fairly quickly after the attack, it seems to me that there were far too many people around this one. Jack may well have realised that this was a mistake and got away quickly. Perhaps he though the heat was on north of Whitechapel road/high st so, tried out a slightly different area where an attack wouldn't be expected, I'd imagine the Police had concentrated their patrols more towards the Commercial street/ Whitechapel rd area and that this wasn't where they would have expected Jack to strike. I think Jack was outside his comfort zone here and realised it quite quickly.

[Wickerman]

These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

"The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18881001.html