For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

The thing is if she can positively ID the person who assaulted her then JtR has a problem when he goes out in that LE could be going around with her nightly to find the guy. It would be a huge lead. Forget Schwartz, Lewende and Hutchinson. Stride would be the best possible witness yet. Assaulted by a man a 15 min walk away from where a woman is then murdered.

Hello Batman,

But if Stride identifies the B.S. man as the man that assaulted her what is he charged with? Simply pushing a woman correct? Easy enough to make up a story to cover his actions. What would the penalty be? A small fine at best.

And how in the world could he be charged with Eddowes murder or even connected to it? That would seem to be a stretch.

c.d.

[c.d.]

She can identify the man that assaulted her in the middle of a series of Ripper murders.

Given the frequency of misogyny against women in Whitechapel in general, I don't think the police are going to look at a woman being pushed and say by God that has to be our man drop all other investigations.

c.d.

[Batman]

They would do what they always did with a suspect that they developed. Monitor them. Put plainclothed officers watching their every move.

They knew back then either they caught him in the act or a witness to a murder could ID him to testify so they could bring charges against him.

Also remember that investigators had noted the convergence in time between walking from Berner St., to Dukes St., and that it was possible Strides killer had happened upon Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank.

Anyway, they were monitoring people just on suspicion by getting tip-offs about them, let alone an actual attack.

[Sam Flynn]

They would do what they always did with a suspect that they developed. Monitor them. Put plainclothed officers watching their every move.

In case he pushed someone else?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Batman I think the point should be made that he needn't have done anything after assaulting Liz, [neither kill her nor Kate]. He could have just gone home, cooled down realizing that he had been compromised and struck on another night, in a different area [let's say further west of Aldgate for instance]. Then there would be virtually nothing to connect him to Jack.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Following on from my last post. Liz then goes to the police says she was thrown to the ground on a night when nothing else happens. A known prostitute being assaulted by a prospective client. It probably would have been logged and a description taken. But that would have been with possibly, dozens more such incidents if indeed Liz would have gone to the police instead of just putting it down to one of the dangers of her profession.

[Jon Guy]

so basically after the initial assault in the street it basically continues as he forces her into the yard forces her to the ground and cuts her throat?

I don`t even think there was an initial assault in the street, Abby
I don`t recall Schwartz stating it took place in the street.
Both statements by Schwartz (both translated into English by different people) state that the assault took place in the passageway ( where the body is found)

Judging by the mud on her dress, it seems she was only thrown down once that evening, and that was when she was killed.
If BS Man had thrown her on the floor, and them she was thrown on the floor again by the phantom killer she would have more mud on her, or mud on her in other places that correspond with how she was lying

[Jon Guy]

What seems to be forgotten is that if BS didn't see Schwartz or pipeman for that matter until after he had thrown Liz to the ground, then why go on and kill her?

Perhaps, Darryl, he`d just killed her when he looked up and noticed Schwartz, and then he left the scene (hence no mutilations).

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps, Darryl, he`d just killed her when he looked up and noticed Schwartz, and then he left the scene (hence no mutilations).

Hi Jon, I think if this were the case then there would be blood splatter on the road/pavement. If he slit her throat in the passageway before he noticed Schwartz then I doubt he would have seen him.

[Batman]

Hi Batman I think the point should be made that he needn't have done anything after assaulting Liz, [neither kill her nor Kate]. He could have just gone home, cooled down realizing that he had been compromised and struck on another night, in a different area [let's say further west of Aldgate for instance]. Then there would be virtually nothing to connect him to Jack.

I think 'need' in terms of a serial sexual homicide offender is very different from what 'need' means to normal people.

In terms of the double murder, these crimes have all the hallmarks of an offender unable to achieve their signature (ripping) which is vital to the emotional need they set to get.

JtR didn't get it with Stride.

Also, he would have been decompensating following a failed attempt which explains him taking bigger risks that can get him caught (Mitre Square).

So quite the opposite of what you think would happen, could happen, namely, instead of fleeing and going into cool down mode, he doubles down on finding a victim to achieve the signature he needs. As is demonstrated throughout crime history with many of these offenders.

Furthermore, the GSG is aimed at Jews following what appears to be Jews getting in his way with Stride certainly and then again with Lewende and friends.

I am surprised that the people who think that Stride was murdered by a Jew at the socialist club on Berner St., aren't putting together that JtR was perhaps playing to people's fears that a Jew was responsible for the murders.

An assault on a woman at night during the Whitechapel murders is exactly the sort of thing LE at the time would wanted to have known about. Consider Leather Apron. What we he guilty of? Look what happened to Piser. He was let go because he didn't do anything, but suspicion was enough to have half of London after him.

We can be guaranteed that JtR assaulted other women before the Whitechapel murders and during them, which went unreported.

Here is another red blotchy faced person for example doing just that...

A little after midnight on March 28 1888, thirty-nine-year-old Ada Wilson, a dress maker, was sitting in her room at 9 Maidman Street, Mile End, when there was a knock on the door.

Opening it, she found a man aged about thirty, who was around five foot six in height, and who had a fair moustache and a sunburnt face standing outside. His clothes consisted of a dark coat, light trousers and a wide-awake hat. The man threatened to kill her if she didn’t give him money. When Ada refused, he took out a clasp-knife and stabbed her twice in the throat.

[Abby Normal]

I don`t even think there was an initial assault in the street, Abby
I don`t recall Schwartz stating it took place in the street.
Both statements by Schwartz (both translated into English by different people) state that the assault took place in the passageway ( where the body is found)

Judging by the mud on her dress, it seems she was only thrown down once that evening, and that was when she was killed.
If BS Man had thrown her on the floor, and them she was thrown on the floor again by the phantom killer she would have more mud on her, or mud on her in other places that correspond with how she was lying

Hi jon
“ in the gateway” and threw her down in the pathway, ive always thought to mean in front of the gates on street side.

[Jon Guy]

Hi jon
“ in the gateway” and threw her down in the pathway, ive always thought to mean in front of the gates on street side.

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

[Michael W Richards]

Ive suggested what I believe is a very plausible storyline that includes Schwartz here in the past....Israel attended the meeting, its why he wasn't at home unpacking in his new place. He was leaving just before a quarter to 12, via the side door into the passageway, when he sees a woman just inside the gates, close to the club wall, arguing physically with a man likely there as a hired security man. Just for that meeting...which the polarizing William Morris was initially going to speak at. The woman has her back against the club wall and the man is poking her in the chest talking to her. She brushes by him to leave the passageway and get out into the street when he grabs her by her scarf from behind, pulls and twists it, she loses her balance, tips back from the waist to her left, the man runs a knife under her neck and pulls back, slicing both her neck and the twisted hanky tight around her neck. He then lets go of the hanky and she drops.

That works with ALL the physical evidence, with the medical opinion, and with the physical circumstances. Which still leaves us with...what was she doing there, and why would someone kill her?

There to clean the club after a large meeting...a job she got from one of her regular jewish customers who is a club member, and the hired thug thought she was there to spy. The reason the most closely affiliated with the club, Wess, Eagle, Diemshutz, all claimed to have seen nothing is because they didn't actually see what happened, Wess had left, Eagle arrived just after it happened, as did Louis, but when Schwartz talks to Wess later that day they decide that this witnessed assault would be far less damaging to the club if it happened off their property. The adding of the probability the assailant was a Gentile is likely to further the notion that the club was in no way involved.

For me that satisfies most of the questions as to why, and it also cleanly reduces the evening to the Single Event. Something which I believe accurately reflects the known evidence. Kate was ripped. Maybe by Jack, maybe by someone else, but Liz was most certainly not.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


Yes, she`s standing in the gateway and:

He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway

or

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage,

Interesting Jon
ive always interpreted the wording here to mean this happened in front of the gateway on the streetside, but I guess it leaves it open to happeing inside the gate..basically in the yard. need to digest this a little more.

[Jon Guy]

Interesting Jon
ive always interpreted the wording here to mean this happened in front of the gateway on the streetside, but I guess it leaves it open to happeing inside the gate..basically in the yard. need to digest this a little more.

What do you think about the mud evidence, Abby ?

The mud found on her matches how she was found on her left side.
If she had been thrown to the floor twice, once by BS Man, and again by the phantom killer, there would be extra mud on her ie on her arse or knees, or something similar.
So.... she was only thrown to the floor once, and we have a witness to that.

What d`ya reckon .. bollocks ?