For what reason do we include Stride?

[Harry D]

Hi.
According to Schwartz . the man tried to pull her into the street.
This implies to me , he wanted Stride to come with him to another area, when she refused , he flung her to the ground.
She could identify him , so he slit her throat
Which implies to me he showed the same M/O as Jack.if the others had refused his advances, as Mary Nichols may have done, they may have suffered a slit throat only ,but Nichols was in a deserted street , and mutilation occurred.
Regards Richard.

So, Stride was dragged kicking and screaming into the yard, where her throat was slit? All the time she didn't spill those damn cachous and there were no signs of a struggle?

Alrighty then.

[Harry D]

I don't think he was full of BS but he did come into the middle of a movie that had no subtitles and left before it was over. I don' think he was lying but I do think we should take his story with a grain of salt given the circumstances.

c.d.

Hello CD,

Schwartz may have seen something, but if he wasn't lying, I think his version of events was greatly exaggerated and embellished.

Stride's murder has all the signs of a blitz attack. If Schwartz is to believed, Stride went into a pitch black yard with her assailant and let her guard down, or there was another attacker in a matter of minutes.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Harry,
I am not suggesting she was dragged 'Kicking and screaming'' Neither am I
suggesting a struggle.
We were not there to determine what occurred
She may have attempted to go into the yard to get help, the killer hand over her mouth slit her throat, and she went down.
The Cachous wedged in her hand.
Regards Richard.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry,
I am not suggesting she was dragged 'Kicking and screaming'' Neither am I
suggesting a struggle.
We were not there to determine what occurred
She may have attempted to go into the yard to get help, the killer hand over her mouth slit her throat, and she went down.
The Cachous wedged in her hand.
Regards Richard.

I can't see a woman escaping into an unlit yard for assistance.

[Jon Guy]

So, Stride was dragged kicking and screaming into the yard, where her throat was slit? All the time she didn't spill those damn cachous and there were no signs of a struggle?

I appreciate there are differing opinions, Harry, but no signs of a struggle ?

There was an abrasion of the skin about one and a half inches in diameter, apparently stained with blood, under her right arm.

Over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and in front of the chest there was a bluish discoloration,

The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.

[Abby Normal]

I can't see a woman escaping into an unlit yard for assistance.

Hi Harry
But it seems she might have been lingering outside listening to the singing. If she had her throat cut in the street-which I lean toward-she may have stumbled into the yard toward the voices and what she thought was help.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Harry
If she had her throat cut in the street-which I lean toward-she may have stumbled into the yard toward the voices and what she thought was help.

Hi Abby

If her throat was cut in the street there would have been a blood trail, and she would have blood down her front.

I strongly believe that Schwartz witnessed the assault leading to her murder.
The bruises on her right arm are what we would expect from someone swinging her about, the bruises over shoulders are consistent with being held down (just like Alice McKenzie).
The tightened scarf consistent with Stride screaming not very loudly

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

If her throat was cut in the street there would have been a blood trail, and she would have blood down her front.

I strongly believe that Schwartz witnessed the assault leading to her murder.
The bruises on her right arm are what we would expect from someone swinging her about, the bruises over shoulders are consistent with being held down (just like Alice McKenzie).
The tightened scarf consistent with Stride screaming not very loudly

Hi Jon
perhaps. but she had blood on her hand-if her hand went instinctively to the wound it might have mitigated the flow. as perhaps would the tightened scarf.

Plus it was a wet rainy night-the water on the ground may have diluted any trace.


having had her throat cut already may have also led to the not screaming very loudly.


can you please expound on your idea of how the scenario in your mind may have happened if she was killed in the yard by the same man who attacked her in the street?

[Jon Guy]

perhaps. but she had blood on her hand-if her hand went instinctively to the wound it might have mitigated the flow. as perhaps would the tightened scarf.
Plus it was a wet rainy night-the water on the ground may have diluted any trace.
having had her throat cut already may have also led to the not screaming very loudly.

Both Phillips and Blackwell confirmed that her throat was cut whilst she was lying where she was found, as Blackwell stated: [I]the blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.

can you please expound on your idea of how the scenario in your mind may have happened if she was killed in the yard by the same man who attacked her in the street?

Of course, but it is worth noting that she was found about 5 feet from where she had been standing in the gateway. So only one good push, or a swing, would have placed her where the body is found. Which is pretty much what Schwartz witnessed.
The not very loud screams could be because her scarf was being pulled tight, or as you say, her throat had been cut.

[Batman]

The fact her throat was cut while she was blitzed prostrate is JtR MO, through n through.

I don't know why people think holding onto the property in darkness while someone knocks you to the ground is hard to accept. People had their property swiped from hand aplenty I would think and that this would be the main reason why she thought she was attacked. For her sweets. So she clutched them and before she knew what had happened her windpipe was slashed followed by almost immediate loss of consciousness in the darkness. Another trait of JtR.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

[Jon Guy]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

Hi Darryl

Good points. But I do wonder whether there was partial strangulation in this case. The doctors make no mention of it, and there were no marks suggesting this on her neck.

Also, BS Man only seems to notice Schwartz (who was behind him when the assault begins) when Schwartz is crossing the road alongside him, and BS Man shouts Lipski.

[Jon Guy]

before she knew what had happened her windpipe was slashed followed by almost immediate loss of consciousness in the darkness. Another trait of JtR.

Good thinking Batman !!
I agree with the above.
Poor Liz may not have even seen the knife until it was too late.

[Abby Normal]

Both Phillips and Blackwell confirmed that her throat was cut whilst she was lying where she was found, as Blackwell stated: [I]the blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.




Of course, but it is worth noting that she was found about 5 feet from where she had been standing in the gateway. So only one good push, or a swing, would have placed her where the body is found. Which is pretty much what Schwartz witnessed.
The not very loud screams could be because her scarf was being pulled tight, or as you say, her throat had been cut.

so basically after the initial assault in the street it basically continues as he forces her into the yard forces her to the ground and cuts her throat?

I could go with that, absolutely.

[Abby Normal]

I think when we assess Liz we have to look at Jack's other victims. When were they killed? Between dusk and dawn. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Where were they killed? in dark secluded places. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what area were they killed? In Whitechapel. Does this fit Liz? Yes. Who were the victims? Poor destitute women who were prostitutes. Does this fit Liz? Yes. In what time frame were they killed? In the Autumn of 1888. Does this fit Liz? Yes. How were they killed? Partial strangulation and then a knife being drawn across the throat. Does this fit Liz? Yes.
I know none of the above makes Liz a given but weighing up the probabilities Jack must be considered the prime suspect for the murder.
One last point Jack never drew attention to himself before any of the other murders. If he was seen, and it is an if, it was just a fleeting glimpse. Does this sound like a man who attacked a victim just before killing her in front of two witnesses while drawing attention to himself by shouting out to at least one of the witnesses in front of a busy club [in the street] while a meeting was going on? and he would probably know this due to the singing etc

hi DK
It seems BS man didn't notice any one until the attack had already started.
one has to keep in mind also, that the ripper was human, and could have simply lost his temper, if stride was not going with him to a secluded area.