For what reason do we include Stride?

[Observer]

I get the about five minutes from the fact that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was about 12.45am and the body was discovered about 1am. That's a total time period of 15 minutes from start to finish. As the putative second assailant got clean away I think about 5 minutes is reasonable for the gap between the end of the first assault and the beginning of a second. That's my line of thought. If you think I'm a long way out, I'd be interested in knowing why.

How long did Blackwell think Stride had been dead when he arrived at 1.16am? (Sorry - don't have my copy of The Ultimate with me but wasn't it about 20 minutes?).

20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.

[Observer]

Because he was a risk taker and thought he'd get away with it, as indeed (if he was the killer) he did.

Then, if he was JTR, why did he not mutilate the body?

[Abby Normal]

If you are startled by a slice to the throat, without thinking you would grab your neck with your hand. Any blood would then be in the palm of the hand. This was stated by Phillips to be on the back of her hand and on her wrist.
More consistent as evidence of transfer from another hand, the wrist is where you feel for the pulse.

I guess you may missed my earlier post. If youve got your hand over a cut neck oozing blood, the blood would probably flow between your fingers and then seep down the back of your hand.

I see your point though-yes if he had blood on his fingers and took her pulse, i could see that also making oblong blood spots on the back of her hand.

If we knew the orientation of the oblong blood spots though we could know which is correct.

Down the back of the hand vertical, im right. Crosswise, your right.

[Abby Normal]

20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.

But parcel man was seen with stride before Bs man. Are you sugesting she left parcel man, got in the squabble with bs man, and then gets back with parcel man?

[harry]

I doubt it would be classed as a case of assault,if BS was first accosted by Stride,and in warding her off she fell to the ground. What is evident,to me at least,is that Schwartz,being behind BS at the initial confrontation ,would not have been in a posistion to clearly observe the first contact.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Abby, Yes blood probably would have oozed through her fingers to the back of the hand if she held it to her neck, but the blood would still be on the palm and the rain couldn't have washed it away because her arm was across her chest with her hand resting on it, which would almost certainly mean palm side down.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, Yes blood probably would have oozed through her fingers to the back of the hand if she held it to her neck, but the blood would still be on the palm and the rain couldn't have washed it away because her arm was across her chest with her hand resting on it, which would almost certainly mean palm side down.

Hi DK
Yes I see what your saying. its another mystery.

[Abby Normal]

I doubt it would be classed as a case of assault,if BS was first accosted by Stride,and in warding her off she fell to the ground. What is evident,to me at least,is that Schwartz,being behind BS at the initial confrontation ,would not have been in a posistion to clearly observe the first contact.

Schwartz was following behind BS man and saw him basically assault Stride immediately.

which would suggest to me one of two things. either he just came upon her, they were total strangers, and he didn't like her being there for some reason.

or he had previously contact with her and was pissed off about something that happened earlier.

I tend toward the latter.

and BTW, being solicited by a woman isn't an excuse for assaulting her. the actions Schwartz described is an assault. period.

[Michael W Richards]

IF the police had a believable, or rather believed, witness statement that was available before Strides Inquest that placed Liz Stride in the hands of someone she is seen being manhandled by just minutes before the estimate time of her throat cut, it would have been submitted to or presented at the Inquest.

It wasn't.

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.

[Michael W Richards]

Elizabeth Stride is added to the Canonicals solely on the basis of a latter murder that more resembled "ripper" work, and the fact she had a history of soliciting in her past. And of course the geographical element.

There is no evidence including the physical wounds, which can be used to assume that Liz was also killed by Annie and Polly's killer.

[Observer]

But parcel man was seen with stride before Bs man. Are you sugesting she left parcel man, got in the squabble with bs man, and then gets back with parcel man?

You are describing two different men here. I thought you were of an opinion that Stride was with the same man from Best, and Gardener, through to Schwartz.

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

Apologies to the old timers here, this ground has been covered many times here here in this Forum.

[Wickerman]

I guess you may missed my earlier post. If youve got your hand over a cut neck oozing blood, the blood would probably flow between your fingers and then seep down the back of your hand.

I see your point though-yes if he had blood on his fingers and took her pulse, i could see that also making oblong blood spots on the back of her hand.

If we knew the orientation of the oblong blood spots though we could know which is correct.

Down the back of the hand vertical, im right. Crosswise, your right.

It strikes me that Phillips was being particular in pointing out the blood stains were on the back of the hand and on the wrist.
If there had been blood in the palm of her hand it would have indicated that she grabbed at her own throat, but he didn't mention that, so I guess her palm was clean of blood.

[Wickerman]

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.

Where do we learn that Schwartz knew Wess (West)?

Elizabeth Stride is added to the Canonicals solely on the basis of a latter murder that more resembled "ripper" work, and the fact she had a history of soliciting in her past. And of course the geographical element.

There is no evidence including the physical wounds, which can be used to assume that Liz was also killed by Annie and Polly's killer.

Agreed in principal, but it's not certain.

[Michael W Richards]

Where do we learn that Schwartz knew Wess (West)?
I believe that Debra Arif found that info a few years back. they apparently knew each other from Paris.

If you consider this then you must see the logic Ive been espousing....Wess, Schwartz, Diemshutz and Eagle gave statements that helped the club create the impression no member saw anything or anyone. Even though we have Lave and Eagle in the passageway at the same time and they didn't see each other, and Eagle arriving when Schwartz said BSM was manhandling Liz.

Schwartz might have just added the Lipski for effect...no-one else heard it ,and it suggests Liz was last seen with a anti-Semitic local.

[Wickerman]

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

I've always been interested as to why the hat worn by the Smith suspect changed.
The first police circular across the various stations was purloined by the press and published on Oct. 1st.

"The following is a description of a man stated to have been seen in company with the woman murdered in Berner-street, and for whom the police are looking:-Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance."

PC Smith did not testify until Friday the 5th Oct.
Press versions of how he described the hat do vary.
The above police circular describes a "hard felt hat", which is not a deerstalker. Yet, elsewhere we read....
Daily Telegraph - He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.
Daily News - He had a hard felt hat on
Morning Advertiser - He wore a hard felt dark hat
Times - He had on a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour
Morning Post - ...wore a hard felt dark deerstalker hat

As you know a deerstalker will fold up and can be put in a coat pocket. They are of soft material. A hard felt hat is more like a Wideawake or Billycock, both based on the Bowler style.

I'm inclined to believe the police circular. That is not to say Smith did not say "deerstalker" at the inquest, but he also had to say "hard felt hat" for the police circular. That detail would not come from anyone else.

What caused him to call the hat a "deerstalker" five days after the incident?

There was a style of hard felt hat that almost resembled the sloped peak of a deerstalker in profile.



If the word "deerstalker" was in error, then the Smith suspect becomes more like the man described by Best & Gardner. I understand there is a difference between the type of moustache, but I'm not so sure that would be a deal breaker.