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For what reason do we include Stride?

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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    totally agree. while possible diemshitz disturbed him-it would mean that the ripper was hiding somewhere in the square and only made his escape when diemshitz went in the club-I find it somewhat hard to accept.
    In more probability he was spooked by something and bolted before diemshitz even arrived.
    and with the commotion in the street and being seen by Schwartz, I think he may have bolted earlier and didn't even enter the yard.
    Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters. In the midst of a series of throat cutting prostitute murders all occurring within a very tight radius we would be criminally remiss not to even consider this as a possible ripper murder. Of course we then have to notice the differences and evaluate whether there could have been a reason for them or whether it was categorically the work of a different killer. We cannot go as far as the latter but we can come up with plausible reasons for the former. So the reasonable position has to be that whilst we cannot be certain Stride might certainly have been a victim of the ripper. Weight is added to this proposition imo when we have the fact of Eddowes murder a short time later and a short distance away. This might show an unsatisfied killer, angry and frustrated at being disturbed, going off to find another victim.
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters.
      The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.
        Yes, this is a good point Sam. He would have had to have been disturbed just at the stroke of the knife.
        Regards

        Herlock






        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.
          Was the murderer who killed Stride quickly with only one cut of a knife is less expierenced and less-practiced than a murderer who needed two cuts?!

          This is not a good point Sam.


          The Baron

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Baron View Post

            Was the murderer who killed Stride quickly with only one cut of a knife is less expierenced and less-practiced than a murderer who needed two cuts?!
            Firstly, he didn't always need two cuts. Secondly, on the occasions when he did inflict two cuts, he went on to complete further mutilations and/or eviscerations - so, whatever his reason for inflciting the "preliminary" cut, it evidently wasn't because he was interrupted. Even if he did need two cuts (which he didn't) then Stride's putative interruption must have happened in the short interval between the infliction of the first and second cut; something which, again, I find rather unlikely - unless we are to believe that Jack would have waited umpteen seconds between each cut.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters. In the midst of a series of throat cutting prostitute murders all occurring within a very tight radius we would be criminally remiss not to even consider this as a possible ripper murder. Of course we then have to notice the differences and evaluate whether there could have been a reason for them or whether it was categorically the work of a different killer. We cannot go as far as the latter but we can come up with plausible reasons for the former. So the reasonable position has to be that whilst we cannot be certain Stride might certainly have been a victim of the ripper. Weight is added to this proposition imo when we have the fact of Eddowes murder a short time later and a short distance away. This might show an unsatisfied killer, angry and frustrated at being disturbed, going off to find another victim.
              HI HS
              oh I have no doubt stride was a ripper victim. peaked cap man. seen by the witnesses of stride, seen by the witnesses of eddowes. seen in between by anon witness in church st.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Firstly, he didn't always need two cuts. Secondly, on the occasions when he did inflict two cuts, he went on to complete further mutilations and/or eviscerations - so, whatever his reason for inflciting the "preliminary" cut, it evidently wasn't because he was interrupted. Even if he did need two cuts (which he didn't) then Stride's putative interruption must have happened in the short interval between the infliction of the first and second cut; something which, again, I find rather unlikely - unless we are to believe that Jack would have waited umpteen seconds between each cut.
                im afraid I don't know what your getting at sam. you seem to be contradicting yourself. if he didn't need two cuts, theres no in between. he merely got spooked and left after he cut her throat.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  im afraid I don't know what your getting at sam. you seem to be contradicting yourself. if he didn't need two cuts, theres no in between. he merely got spooked and left after he cut her throat.
                  There were two cuts to Nichols' and Chapman's throats, one less extensive than the other, so was the killer "spooked" into committing the shorter cut in either case? I don't think so, because he went on to make a longer, even deeper cut immediately afterwards... almost 100% certainly within a second or two of making the first cut.

                  So, being "spooked" mid-cut doesn't explain Stride's somewhat lesser injury, and being "spooked" between the first cut and a subsequent cut a second or two later would require a ridiculously fine-tuned interruption. I don't buy either explanation, I'm afraid. I think it far more likely that Stride's killer did all he intended to do with her and was out of there well before Dymshitz arrived on the scene.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Anyone making a second throat cut directly after the first is almost guaranteed to get blood all over their hands. Best to wait a few seconds until blood pressure has dropped right off.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                      Anyone making a second throat cut directly after the first is almost guaranteed to get blood all over their hands. Best to wait a few seconds until blood pressure has dropped right off.
                      He didn't cut Eddowes' throat twice, so the "two cuts" thing is a bit moot if you ask me. That being the case, we're left with the "interrupted during/immediately after cutting the throat" scenario which, as I've pointed out, I find very hard to believe. To me, the sole purpose of the interruption hypothesis is to keep Stride within the Canon by explaining away the absence of mutilations, when the most parsimonious explanation is that her killer had no intention of mutilating her.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        He didn't cut Eddowes' throat twice, so the "two cuts" thing is a bit moot if you ask me. That being the case, we're left with the "interrupted during/immediately after cutting the throat" scenario which, as I've pointed out, I find very hard to believe. To me, the sole purpose of the interruption hypothesis is to keep Stride within the Canon by explaining away the absence of mutilations, when the most parsimonious explanation is that her killer had no intention of mutilating her.
                        hi Sam
                        ahh. I think I see what your getting at-after the neck cut and before he started the mutilations-its a short time, and odd that he would be interrupted at exactly that moment. got it. somewhat agree.

                        however, specifically with stride, I think the killer, the ripper, was perhaps having a hard time with her, trying to get her to a secluded spot and may have lost his temper and cut her throat in anger, before fleeing because of the commotion he caused and being seen by Schwartz.

                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.
                          Hello Sam,

                          I think we are dealing with two concepts here. Paranoia and being "spooked." I would think that he would have been somewhat paranoid simply being out and about that night knowing that the police were out looking for him and that if he is caught he most likely will be hanged. Given that assumption simply being in proximity to the club where he could see lights and hear the people singing had to have ramped that up. You seem to be implying that the mutilations would have instantly begun after the cut to the throat. But if Stride struggled or called out or even if he wanted to assure himself of the situation, I can see a minute or two delay. Now this is where the "spooked"comes in if he hears a door open or some other type of noise or even if he decides the whole situation is just too risky. There are other women in Whitechapel and so he bolts.

                          c.d.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            He didn't cut Eddowes' throat twice, so the "two cuts" thing is a bit moot if you ask me. That being the case, we're left with the "interrupted during/immediately after cutting the throat" scenario which, as I've pointed out, I find very hard to believe. To me, the sole purpose of the interruption hypothesis is to keep Stride within the Canon by explaining away the absence of mutilations, when the most parsimonious explanation is that her killer had no intention of mutilating her.
                            And yet the killer of Chapman and Nichols did take the time to cut twice, when as you say one cut would have been enough. So why?

                            Comment


                            • The person cutting Strides throat would have been working in almost complete darkness,so his actions would have been more by touch than by sight.Pehaps also there might have been slight resistence at the beginning,so two cuts,just to make sure,is a reasonable explanation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                                And yet the killer of Chapman and Nichols did take the time to cut twice, when as you say one cut would have been enough. So why?
                                A question for another thread, perhaps. One cut was enough for Eddowes and Stride but they differed in extent.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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