For what reason do we include Stride?

[Jon Guy]

But Jon, where does the soil come from?
Diemschitz had come from Crystal Palace and the cart was kept in George Yard, Cable Street.
The roads between Crystal Palace and Berner St. are all paved or cobbled.
George Yard was cobbled just like Dutfields Yard.
Where does the cart wheel pick up wet soil?

Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.

Be my guest Jon, pick a newspaper that suits your theory - attaboy!

But you`ll note, I reference both sources ;-)

[Jon Guy]

Hi Abby

One thing I have little doubt is that BS man, AKA peaked cap to me, was strides killer and JTR.

My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR

I have a lot of little scenarios on how the specifics of the BS man/stride murder may have went down.

the one I favor:
BS man is the man that Marshall, schwartz and probably the PC saw with stride. perhaps Best too, but just got the hat completely wrong.

Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man

BS man meets stride somewhere, perhaps the pub, and is trying to finagle her to a secluded spot. Shes not going-I think because she was not actively soliciting, maybe wary of the ripper murders-she just broken up and seems to me to be out having a good time maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfreind/sugar daddy.

Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!

I think more than likely, schwartz saw the attack/beginning of the attack, just didnt specifically see him cut her throat.

Her hand goes to her throat, BS man skidaddles, stride stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard.

I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



My gut feeling is that BS Man killed Stride, and therefore, could be JTR



Yes, it does look like Marshall`s Man and BS Man are the same man.
I think so.
But I think PC Smith`s Man could be Brown`s Man (long coat), and Best`s Man is not BS Man



Yes, it does seem like Stride is making her date wait !!



I can`t agree with Stride getting her throat cut anywhere but where she was lying against the wall.

thanks Jon

now that I see your scenario more clearly-I have no problem with it.

[Wickerman]

Good question, Jon
None the less, Stride was plastered in mud.

Which is why I suggested that 'mud' was a euphemism for horse dung.

[Michael W Richards]

Ive read a lot of your posts lately and Im now convinced that you have not studied these crimes for very long.

It's not being adverse to it, it's the fact there is no evidence for it and there is evidence contradicting it. Especially given we know they were investigated. There is no reason they were in on it any more than anyone else living, working, clubbing in close proximity to any Whitechapel murder.

The murder occurred on their property when 20 plus men were still onsite, no one saw anything apparently even though club witnesses put themselves in locations where other members have said they were , at least 3 club witnesses claimed they were notified of the body at 12:45, and the "investigation" was to search them and the club for evidence...a bloody knife could easily have been dropped in a soapy sink.

The point is that if the club were in on a conspiracy to frame JtR for the murder then why not mutilate Stride? It really is that simple.

Why would they do that? The club staff finds out a murder was committed, a spur of the moment act, all they have to do is explain why that happened on their property. They frame the killer at large because its a good idea at the time, the only "conspiracy" is that people who make thir living there agree to follow a "didnt see nothing or no-one, didnt here no-one". The facts are that Wess says he leaves while Lave says he was inside the passage and near the gate..neither see either....that Eagle says "he couldnt be sure" a body wasnt there at 12:45, that Issac Kozebrodski says he was sent out alone by Louis near 12:45, 2 other members corroborate that time,.. Louis says he arrived promptly at 1am, he was sure, yet Fanny is at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously...we know this because she sees Goldstein at 12:55, and she doesnt see or hear Louis approach,... that Israels claims are seen or heard by no-one else even though we know Fanny can hear the street activity and a young couple are also on the street.

Why do they need to make the discovery also?

Need to? The woman is lying in the passageway her blood trailing down towards the open door...20 men are inside and since the front door in now locked they will leave by the side entrance...the question is more how could they avoid making a discovery.

Louis Diemschutz, the steward of the Workers' Club, claims to have found her body and disturbed the killer who he thought could be still in the yard.

Louis was lying about the time he arrived and what happened next, and he doesnt claim to have "disturbed" anyone.

Also, why aren't they all describing JtR as a non-Jew doing the murder?

Israels story has an antisemite assaulting Liz less than 10 minutes before he throat is cut...how you came to the above position is beyond me.

Why leave it so open-ended as to the blame possibly falling on them?

The stories deflect the blame onto the antisemetic gentile...you have read something about the cases havent you? Not that mere reading allows one to accurately interpret what is being written, but it is a start.

You do realize it is the double event that suddenly changed the complexion of Stride's murder.

I realize that 3 women had their throats slit on one night, and that a Double Event is a constructed theory, not an established fact.

How did they organize a double-event? Just got lucky?

The fact you would ask that shows you dont understand the dynamics here at all.

If you want them to be in a conspiracy you actually need to explain a logical conspiracy that explains all the facts. Not just that someone in the club killed her and others helped cover it up. The facts are much more than that.

The medical examiner said she may have been cut while falling, that she was cut once, and that it may have been a 2 second attack. Those facts fit with what I suggest...a spur of the moment action with consequences that were mitigated by constructing alibis.

If you want to take an antagonistic approach to the boards, np, just try and know what the hell you are talking about please.

[Batman]

Ive read a lot of your posts lately and Im now convinced that you have not studied these crimes for very long.

If you want to take an antagonistic approach to the boards, np, just try and know what the hell you are talking about please.

MWR, you don't believe there is a JTR do you?

I am not taking any such approach except the ones laid out by Sugden, Rumbelow, Begg, etc.

All the C5 had their neck's cut while prostrate.

That's a major link because it's very rare.

What say thou?

[etenguy]

In the heat of the moment, unsure of what exactly happened to that point, the people most closely associated with the club agreed what should be said to the police. To minimize any suggestion that any member or person onsite at the time might be guilty of murder.

I can imagine the scenario you describe, though lies involving a number of people that have been hurriedly put together, tend to fall apart just as quickly. I think the police would likely have spotted a group lie.

[Michael W Richards]

MWR, you don't believe there is a JTR do you?

I do not believe that there was any serial boogyman, no. I believe someone mentally ill killed 2, perhaps 3 women within the Canonical Group.

I am not taking any such approach except the ones laid out by Sugden, Rumbelow, Begg, etc.

Since you mention these fine researchers/authors Ill let you know that I asked Stewart Evans on here in the past what he thinks, and its in line with my own thoughts.

All the C5 had their neck's cut while prostrate.

There is no evidence that was the case in all the C5, and it certainly isnt the case with Liz Stride.

That's a major link because it's very rare.

If they all had that in common, sure, but all there is.. as of this very moment.. is speculation about that.

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.

[Michael W Richards]

I can imagine the scenario you describe, though lies involving a number of people that have been hurriedly put together, tend to fall apart just as quickly. I think the police would likely have spotted a group lie.

They might have, if there were so many differing accounts. eagle and Diemshutz likely cooked up the premise..no one saw anything and Louis found her after 1am..and Sunday night they add Israel, a friend of Wess's, to suggest an onsite beginning to the murder, by a gentile. Problem for those guys was they didnt have time to huddle with other members to get them on the same page, thats why Issac's account disagrees with Louis and Eagle, as does Heschbergs and Gillens. And Spooners too, someone with nothing to lose and no reason to lie...like Fanny. Or James Brown.

4 people said they were by the body near 12:45...tell me, do we have 4 people corroboration in ANY other alleged Ripper murder? And yet people want to believe that the people who bore the greatest risk to their livelihood were more truthful.

I think every Ripperologist needs to have an understanding of average people before they tackle killers.

[Batman]

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.

My signature reads "canonical and then some..." meaning I probably accept a C6 at the very least.

This case is classic lust murder escalation with an anchor point around Flower & Dean.

The C5 are linked by the way they had their throats cut while prostrate. All the medical examiners note clearly, no blood down front.

[caz]

Batman, see the cases for what they are. They are murdered women who are linked by modern and contemporary supposition, with only a very few cases having matching MO and knife type and style signatures. There is no evidence for anything resembling a Motive in any of them, (thats why a lack of one is speculated), there is great dissimilarity with some, and the Canonical Group, a group of Five selected from a file of over 12 victims, is a theory, not some fact you can rest your hopes on.

Hi Michael,

I note that you had written previously to Batman:

I realize that 3 women had their throats slit on one night, and that a Double Event is a constructed theory, not an established fact.

If the Double Event was a constructed theory, it was constructed very soon after the murders of Stride and Eddowes, by the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard, who had written the Dear Boss letter a few days before he could have known that two more unfortunates would soon be dead from a slit throat within a quarter of an hour's walk from each other, and about an hour apart in time, turning Nichols and Chapman into victims of a potential serial killer, many decades before the ever growing phenomenon was even called serial killing. Today we have too many well documented cases of double events by serial killers to deny the phenomenon could have existed back in 1888, and the sender of that infamous postcard certainly knew his onions and was significantly more clued up on the subject and its mysteries, by early October of that year, than many of today's armchair tecs, and therefore better qualified to comment - whether he had up close and very personal experience or was merely a particularly prescient and observant observer.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Following on...

I would also allow for the possibility of a double event within the double event, whereby the killer - the ripper IMHO - watched Stride being manhandled, heard the Lipski slur and saw Schwartz witnessing the incident, and then waded in when both men had left the scene, striking while she was preoccupied with dusting herself off, regaining her composure and possibly taking the cachous from her pocket. In that way, the two assaults wouldn't have been a terribly unlikely coincidence, but would merely involve an opportunistic killer taking advantage of a not uncommon incident of an unfortunate being abused on the streets of Whitechapel.

The bonus would be that the abuser would be seen as the obvious suspect, while the ripper would not have been seen with his victim at the crucial time. The downside may have been the approaching pony and cart, or the comings and goings of club members, if he was obliged to put his mutilation fantasies on hold, and flee the scene after inflicting the single fatal knife wound. If he was determined to find satisfaction before calling it a night, we know Eddowes was available and we know her killer certainly filled his boots in Mitre Square.

In 2005, Mark Dixie murdered Sally Anne Bowman in leafy South Croydon, after watching her having an argument with her boyfriend in his car, parked outside her house. When she finally got out and her boyfriend drove off, Dixie struck, swiftly and silently with no witnesses. The attack was particularly brutal, having followed an earlier non-fatal assault in a nearby street, where Dixie was foiled by an approaching taxi. Sally's boyfriend immediately became the prime suspect for her murder and was only cleared by DNA evidence, which was eventually found to match Dixie's, when he was arrested the following year for a pub fight.

So this was not only a genuine double event, but the second victim, Sally Anne Bowman, found herself in trouble with two men who happened to be on the spot, on a sleepy and deserted residential street, within seconds of each other. No coincidence though, because Dixie was watching and waiting to pounce when the coast was clear.

For what reason do I include Stride?

For the same reason the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard did. He knew a thing or two about a classic 'Double Event' before pretty much anyone else knew a sausage.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

"For the same reason the author of the Saucy Jacky postcard did. He knew a thing or two about a classic 'Double Event' before pretty much anyone else knew a sausage."

"Knew a sausage?" Translation please, Caz.

Where do you come up with these expressions? I'm still working on "big girl's blouse."

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

"Knew a sausage?" Translation please, Caz.

I'm not Caz, but "to not know a sausage about X" is "to know nothing about X". Sausages appeal to other modalities, as in "I hadn't heard a sausage that Dave had been ill", or "I was looking for it all the time, but I didn't see a sausage".

I don't know the origin of this, but I wonder if "sausage" might be loose rhyming slang for "smidge", i.e. "a tiny amount".

[c.d.]

Thank you, Sam (I think). I don't why you people across the pond can't speak correctly.

c.d.