saving Liz Stride

[curious]

I t
The evidence suggests the 2nd scenario....but the Canonical Group concept suggests the first.

It is my opinion that the deepness of the single cut for Stride suggests Jack.

But that the bloodied attempt to feel her pulse (the blood smears on her right hand) suggest someone else.

curious

[perrymason]

It is my opinion that the deepness of the single cut for Stride suggests Jack.

But that the bloodied attempt to feel her pulse (the blood smears on her right hand) suggest someone else.

curious

Hi curious,

In fact the cut on Stride is dissimilar to any other Canonical throat cut. Its less severe, and it only severs one artery completely.

Jack cuts them so deep he almost scrapes his knife on the cobblestones under their necks....he certainly nicks their vertebrae. He almost decapitates the women.

Plus, Liz's cut may have been made while she fell....and that is something else that is not present in the evidence of any other Canonical.

Cheers curious

[curious]

Michael,

Dr. Blackwell said of Liz's cut: "Her head had been almost severed from her body."

That was with one cut.

different, evidently, but still a practised cut by someone handy with a knife.

Now, I have read about the nicks in the vertabrae in Chapman and Kelly both. Were there others?

Curious

[perrymason]

Michael,

Dr. Blackwell said of Liz's cut: "Her head had been almost severed from her body."

That was with one cut.

different, evidently, but still a practised cut by someone handy with a knife.

Now, I have read about the nicks in the vertabrae in Chapman and Kelly both. Were there others?

Curious

Im "curious" now about that supposed quote from Blackwell, where did that statement appear ?

Pollys cut was also very severe with spinal nicks, so thats Polly, Annie, I believe Kates may have been nicked and Marys.

Cheers curious

[curious]

It's here on Casebook, under "Witnesses" then under "Doctors and Coronors" then under Blackwell -- right at the top of his statement.

curious

[perrymason]

It's here on Casebook, under "Witnesses" then under "Doctors and Coronors" then under Blackwell -- right at the top of his statement.

curious

Hi curious,

That report was from the Star, and you'll notice that he supposedly says some things he doesn't say at the Inquest...which is further down in that same article.

I think for the most part the "hard" evidence is the witness accounts on the stand....and when he takes the stand he even accounts for a slower bleed rate due to only one artery being severed completely.

Best regards

[Archaic]

Possible Scenario: Why Liz's Throat Wound Wasn't Deeper

Perhaps the scenario I suggested in a previous post might offer as a possible explanations as to why Liz's throat wound wasn't deeper:

One point I wonder about is if the killer grabbed Liz and killed her at that moment because he heard the pony cart approaching?
He might have hoped the driver would pass on and been afraid the driver would catch a glimpse of them as he passed if he didn't instantly get Liz "under control" and into the darkness next to the wall. Just an idea.

Liz was effectively 'silenced' by the single cut to her throat. That's the crucial point.
If Diemschutz had happened to pass by the front gate, the killer could then have gotten to work and carried out much more extensive cuttings and mutilations.

However, as we know, Diemschutz did turn into Dutfield's Yard. Because at that moment Liz was either already dead or in the process of dying from having her throat slashed, she couldn't give the killer away. He had her both quiet & down flat on the ground in the darkness, where a few moments later she frightened the pony but was merely an unidentifiable "form" to Diemschutz.
> So by that single slash to the throat, Liz was not only permanently silenced, but she became a very effective diversion which focused Diemschutz's attention and gave the killer the opportunity he needed to make his escape.
The killer not only got away unseen by Diemschutz, but he did so safe in the knowledge that Liz would never be able to go to the police and give a description of him.

The single knife wound to Liz's throat also bears serious consideration regarding its psychological and behavioral aspects.
Serial Killers frequently exhibit a strange trait, which is that once they have "chosen" their victim and started stalking them, they absolutely hate the idea of leaving the victim alive- even when it's clear that the circumstances simply aren't right to do all they had intended to do. It's as though once they have set things in motion they can't bear to admit defeat and just walk away. They become utterly fixated, and their compulsion to kill becomes even more intense. These killings frequently appear utterly gratuitous to us, because they often done in the last moment before the killer quits the scene.

Many Serial Killers have been interviewed as to WHY they make this terrible choice to kill the victim regardless of the circumstances, and it's clear that to them this choice has its own internal "logic" - a logic involving a bizarre sense of possessiveness and entitlement which the rest of us find very difficult to grasp.

In my opinion, this killer had invested his time, energy, and, crucially, his fantasies and expectations in Liz.
Once he had passed a certain internal psychological point, 'the point of no return' as other Serial Killers have described it, I don't think he could bear to let Liz Stride walk out of the yard alive.

If Diemschutz had happened to pass by the gate that night, I believe that the killer would have turned and cut the dead or dying Liz to ribbons.

Best regards, Archaic

[curious]

Hi curious,

That report was from the Star,
Best regards

You're right. I should have read that more closely.

curious

[mattwill]

One thing that bothers me about a domestic murder is the flower. If it was Kidney, who is the only suspect I can see that fits that scenario (certainly not a new lover or old one), why did he leave the flower in her bodice? It seems to me that a person so jealous to kill would want to take that away from his victim as it was more than likely given to her by another man that evening. Any thoughts?

[curious]

Hello. The time seems ripe for a forensic reconstruction of the events in and near Dutfield's yard on the night of the "double event."

Both Fisherman and Perry Mason have offered cogent reconstructions that tend to place Liz Stride outside the canon. Now it's time for the other side to do the same to place her INSIDE.

I appreciate that some of these have been reconstructed on various other threads, but I believe it would be helpful to blend the diverse elements into 1 harmonious whole.

LC

Lynn,
Do you have a verdict yet? do you think Liz's place has been saved?

curious

[curious]

One thing that bothers me about a domestic murder is the flower. If it was Kidney, who is the only suspect I can see that fits that scenario (certainly not a new lover or old one), why did he leave the flower in her bodice? It seems to me that a person so jealous to kill would want to take that away from his victim as it was more than likely given to her by another man that evening. Any thoughts?

Very interesting observation.

Only thing I can think of here would be if he had grabbed her and slit her throat before he even thought about it. Then, when he realized what he had done and perhaps grabbed her wrist searching for a pulse (there's one theory that she died in a choke hold and not from the knife wound -- that's the reason for no blood spurting) and could not get a pulse, his killing anger changed to shock and he realized he HAD to get away from the body. There were people very close by and if found with the body, he was in big trouble . . . .

At that point, he would never even have thought of the flowers or anything except getting away.

curious

[lynn cates]

rage

Hello Matt. If one kills in a jealous rage and then cools quickly, remorse may be the likely response.

(I'm not a Kidney person.)

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

verdict

Hello Curious.

"Do you have a verdict yet? [D]o you think Liz's place has been saved?"

Well, 2 or 3 scenarios are less bad than the others. Jack hiding up the yard and Jack dragging Liz, dead, into the yard both almost do justice to the forensics problems.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

There's a lot of bizarre, unlikely stuff on these Stride threads. Is that the kind of stuff you gravitate towards?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

reconstructions

Hello Tom. Not really. I saw Fisherman's reconstruction as well as Perrymason's. Both see domestic altercations. So do I.

I merely wanted to be convinced that Liz was a ripper victim. Thus far, I'm not. But my mind is open.

See anything you like?

The best.
LC