saving Liz Stride

[Archaic]

re: Use of Term "Domestic"

Hi, folks.

Lynn, I think I can clear up a bit of confusion here: based upon my reading of previous posts, I believe Curious is using the word "domestic" as shorthand for a case of "domestic violence" rather than as a term describing the type of work Liz did.

Hi, Curious. 'Domestic' is another word for 'servant' or 'one who does household work', and Liz worked as a house-cleaner.

Hence the confusion- you and Lynn are actually talking about two different things.

Hope this helps.

Best regards, Archaic

[curious]

Hi, folks.

Lynn, I think I can clear up a bit of confusion here: based upon my reading of previous posts, I believe Curious is using the word "domestic" as shorthand for a case of "domestic violence" rather than as a term describing the type of work Liz did.

Hi, Curious. 'Domestic' is another word for 'servant' or 'one who does household work', and Liz worked as a house-cleaner.

Hence the confusion- you and Lynn are actually talking about two different things.

Hope this helps.

Best regards, Archaic

Hi, Archaic,
Thanks.

I was referring to Lynn's posting No. 135 and I quote:
"Both see domestic altercations. So do I."

I simply left off the word 'altercations', so it was "shorthand" I suppose, but we were both using the term "domestic" to say that she was NOT killed by Jack the Ripper, but for a personal reason.

curious

[curious]

So, for example, a different pictures emerges if she were with 1 man as opposed to many. Or if Schwartz is added or subtracted. Same with BO man--did Brown see him with Liz or was it a block over? Same forking with solicitation.

One place where the reasoning seems not to fork is with those accursed cachous. Had she not been found with those, you could tell me any bloody story and I'd swallow it. But the cachous changes the entire equation and so Liz died where she was found and pointing as she was found and facing as she was found. And that opens up Pandora's box of complications for the traditional assault.

The best.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

I personally think Brown saw another couple:

1) He heard the woman speak with no accent. Liz had an accent.
2) It was very dark.
3) He saw no flower.

(when and where did she acquire the flower, anyway?)

From the beginning, I've had a niggling suspicion that there might be a "hawker" involved here.

curious

[lynn cates]

flow chart

Hello Roy.

"I couldn't disagree more."

No problem with that.

"A woman attacked, overpowered and murdered by a serial killer cannot clutch an item in her hand. She cannot hold on to that item for dear life. It can't be.That's what you're saying."

Actually, I'm NOT saying that. The indications, instead are that:

1. She is facing the gates.

2. She reaches into her pocket for the cachous and in so doing turns slightly left.

3. Assailant is to her right, and slightly behind her.

4. He grabs her scarf quickly with the left hand and it has the effect of choking.

5. As with any case of choking, Liz's reaction is to clench both fists (of course, her right hand is not relevant).

6. Assailant cuts her throat with knife in his right hand.

7. Assailant lays her down gently, on her left side facing wall.

8. Elapsed time: approximately 2 seconds as per inquest suggestion.

Some of these are explicit in the report, some are implied. I trust NONE are contrary.

Notice that nothing in my suggested "flow chart" necessarily precludes Jack the Ripper qua assailant. It does, however, raise serious questions regarding Schwartz's story. Of course, I'd be happy to disregard Schwartz.

Now, for this to be Jack, I suppose, we need Liz soliciting. Fine. (I think she was NOT on this night but I will waive that. The argument runs: "Liz was a registered prostitute." She was indeed. Tiger Woods is a registered golfer; still, he finds time for other pursuits.)

Let's say she is soliciting somewhere near the gates of the yard and the main door of the club. Although this is a very public place, I'll waive that, too. Let's just say that Liz deemed this a good place to turn tricks--analogous to a convention held in a hotel.

Now where are we? Well, let's say her assailant meets her. (You may choose whomever you like here--Jack, BS man, pipeman--you have carte blanche.)

Now, we need to dovetail this moment with my flow chart. I think you will agree that, at some point, she places the cachous if hand. But after they are placed there, there can be no violent throwings, turnings, or twistings--on pain of spilling the cachous.

Now, if not for the cachous, nearly any scenario would work. OR, if Liz were face down, there would be no problem--she's going INTO the yard to fulfill her contract. If Liz were feet towards kitchen door, still no problem, for she would STILL be going INTO the yard.

Please try this at home with another person, but be careful. On my last try I slightly injured my wife's wrist in the fracas.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

equivocation--mea culpa

Hello Archaic.

"I believe Curious is using the word "domestic" as shorthand for a case of "domestic violence" rather than as a term describing the type of work Liz did."

I never thought it referred to her work, although she did that kind of work, too.

I fear I am guilty of a bit of equivocation here. The first time, I referred to those who possibly had feelings for one another. So, if 2 people are friends and have a dispute, it's a domestic dispute (well, sort of?). THAT WAS VERY INEXACT OF ME. I regret the confusion.

When I referred to "domestic" as odd, I was thinking of the proper designation--2 who are cohabiting. It is my personal belief that Liz was not done to death by anyone with whom she was cohabiting, but rather by a friend or former client.

Again, I regret my inexactitude.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Curious.

"I personally think Brown saw another couple."

Some would agree. Recall: he stated he was NEARLY certain it was she. But what is that except an allowance of error?

"He heard the woman speak with no accent. Liz had an accent."

Really? I haven't heard that one before. My impression is that the testimony indicated that Liz's speech was thoroughly English. I will need to recheck.

"From the beginning, I've had a niggling suspicion that there might be a "hawker" involved here."

Whoa ho! Are his initials MP? Interesting.

The best.
LC

[belinda]

Thank You for starting this thread. I'm trying to write an article on Liz and this is
really helpful.

Is it alright if I take notes from this?

If anybody objects I won't

[lynn cates]

thread

Hello Belinda. I started this thread in order to learn. I have seen the anti-Liz dissertations and am mightily impressed by them. But equal time must be granted.

Permission for using the thread might best be left to Mr. Ryder who, I take it, is now the owner of the thread, to say nothing of the site.

The best.
LC

[belinda]

Hello Belinda. I started this thread in order to learn. I have seen the anti-Liz dissertations and am mightily impressed by them. But equal time must be granted.

Permission for using the thread might best be left to Mr. Ryder who, I take it, is now the owner of the thread, to say nothing of the site.

The best.
LC

OK I'm doing the article from a different perspective not Liz the Victim more who was Liz The Person everybody seems to forget before they were Victims they were People The way they are portrayed in films is a classic example of that.

[lynn cates]

article

Hello Belinda. For whom is the article? Perhaps you will share it with the rest of us when it is finished?

The best.
LC

[curious]

Hello Curious.

"He heard the woman speak with no accent. Liz had an accent."

Really? I haven't heard that one before. My impression is that the testimony indicated that Liz's speech was thoroughly English. I will need to recheck.

"From the beginning, I've had a niggling suspicion that there might be a "hawker" involved here."

Whoa ho! Are his initials MP? Interesting.

The best.
LC

Must mention that we're dealing with a memory that is no longer what it once was, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Liz still had an accent. She immigrated to England as an adult, I believe.

I don't have a suspect for the "hawker" -- not really.

I don't recognize MP, who is that?

Also, I was first thinking W.H. Bury, who seemed to be expanding his non-working sawdust business into areas he apparently had tried before. Plus, he was violent and was actually a murderer.

But as I progress, I have no one firmly in mind. I'm just trying to make the pieces fit together in something that resembles one big picture.

But the familiarity of a hawker/customer would fit for the women being comfortable in his presence, perhaps even affectionate with him if he gave them "good deals."

curious

[lynn cates]

accent

Hello Curious.

"[Coroner] When she spoke English could you detect that she was a foreigner? - She spoke English as well as an English woman."

This is from the inquest testimony of Elizabeth Tanner.

MP is Matthew Packer--the green grocer/"witness."

The best.
LC

[belinda]

Hello Belinda. For whom is the article? Perhaps you will share it with the rest of us when it is finished?

The best.
LC

That's the plan

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Belinda. Then we shall all be much obliged.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hi Lynn, I couldn't disagree more.

A woman attacked, overpowered and murdered by a serial killer cannot clutch an item in her hand. She cannot hold on to that item for dear life. It can't be.

That's what you're saying.

Roy

Hi Roy,

Since I believe that Lynn and I are on the same page as far as most of the evidence readings in this case, I feel comfortable saying what he and I are asserting is that the clench is an involuntary response to sudden choking, and we have a non-defensive posture by Liz Stride which is supported by the fact that she is attacked from behind...she faced away from the man that grabbed her scarf, or he came from nowhere and grabbed it...but it was with her facing the gates.

That would imply the cachous were in her hand before she turned, which would indicate that she may have been facing her killer and taking out a mint, which would indicate she knew the man to some degree as she is in a passageway to a yard that was almost pitch black.

Best regards