saving Liz Stride

[belinda]

Hello Belinda. Then we shall all be much obliged.

The best.
LC

I hope so

[lynn cates]

indeed

Hello Mike.

"I feel comfortable saying what he and I are asserting is that the clench is an involuntary response to sudden choking."

"You're a wise man, van Helsing"--oops, I mean Mike.

I daresay our forensic reconstructions very nearly coincide.

The best, mate.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike.

"I feel comfortable saying what he and I are asserting is that the clench is an involuntary response to sudden choking."

"You're a wise man, van Helsing"--oops, I mean Mike.

I daresay our forensic reconstructions very nearly coincide.

The best, mate.
LC

This is the time where it would be helpful if at least one of us were Watson or Holmes .....we have a probable "When" and reasonable "How" with a likely "What".... but a "Why" that is so elusive. And that's the only question that really matters in the big scheme.

I would think that one of the greatest hurdles in terms of "saving Liz" would be the probable demeanor of the victim just prior to her attack and murder...which may have been combined into one swift kill lasting maybe 2 seconds. She bled to death, she didnt die from the throat cut alone. The others certainly did.

It appears as if Liz felt comfortable turning her back to a yard that must have had at least one other person in it at the time. If this was Jack, somehow he has to surprise her I believe.

Now, If she faced the gates, and he came out the already open kitchen door...... .....maybe even with Israel following him out.....

My best as always LC

[curious]

Hello Curious.

"[Coroner] When she spoke English could you detect that she was a foreigner? - She spoke English as well as an English woman."

This is from the inquest testimony of Elizabeth Tanner.

MP is Matthew Packer--the green grocer/"witness."

The best.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

I knew I should not be relying on my memory!! but haven't quite gotten accustomed to not being able to.

I hadn't really thought of Packer as a suspect. It appeared to me his story was influenced. What's your take on that?

But who knows -- with my memory, I may concoct a very creative solution.

curious

[curious]

This is the time where it would be helpful if at least one of us were Watson or Holmes .....we have a probable "When" and reasonable "How" with a likely "What".... but a "Why" that is so elusive. And that's the only question that really matters in the big scheme.
If this was Jack, somehow he has to surprise her I believe.

Jack is the simple solution here. She'd "picked him up as a shadow" somewhere along the evening, someone who blended into the shadows and no one was aware he was there.

If the incident with BS man happened, Liz went into the yard for the privies and to tidy herself up after he left.

As she headed back to the gate, she was completely unaware there was anyone in the shadows.

It occurred to me just this morning that perhaps the reason Stride was not mutilated was because Jack made a mistake and didn't realize how dark the yard was (or perhaps even how busy it was) until he'd cut her once and didn't have light to work -- or a door opened and he had to shrink back into the deepest shadow and wait with his heart pounding . . . .

Jack is the easy "why" but I'm not sure he was in that yard.

curious

[perrymason]

Jack is the simple solution here. She'd "picked him up as a shadow" somewhere along the evening, someone who blended into the shadows and no one was aware he was there.

If the incident with BS man happened, Liz went into the yard for the privies and to tidy herself up after he left.

As she headed back to the gate, she was completely unaware there was anyone in the shadows.

It occurred to me just this morning that perhaps the reason Stride was not mutilated was because Jack made a mistake and didn't realize how dark the yard was (or perhaps even how busy it was) until he'd cut her once and didn't have light to work -- or a door opened and he had to shrink back into the deepest shadow and wait with his heart pounding . . . .

Jack is the easy "why" but I'm not sure he was in that yard.

curious

Hi curious,

In fact Jack is the more complex answer here because for this to have been Jack means that the Ripper simply killed Liz without having any intentions of cutting into her. The approaching cart and horse, which is verified by Fanny as being near 1am, would have been heard approaching for a few minutes prior to Diemshutz pulling in....and with the obvious lack of any handling of Liz or her clothes or her limbs after she hit the ground, that would suggest that if the killer intended some further actions they are not present in any evidence. So we have a Ripper who simply kills a woman without wanting anything else from this encounter,... as you suggest, jumping from "the shadows"....doing so while he can hear an approaching cart and horse which effectively cuts off his ability to leave via the front gates unseen,......

It doesnt work. And it doesnt answer what she is doing in the yard in the first place,....(why would she enter an empty dark yard to clean herself off, when she would need light to do so).... nor why cachous would be a part of that.

I think a case of street style violence addresses the facts much more easily, and with that kind of event we dont need to have a very unique and rare type of killer being the one using the knife to make one simple cut likely while the victim was falling. Knife assaults in that neck of the woods happened often, many that led to attempted murder or manslaughter charges.

All the best

[lynn cates]

K

Hello Mike.

"Now, If she faced the gates, and he came out the already open kitchen door . . . "

And it would be great if his name were K-something-ski.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

Packer

Hello Curious.

"I hadn't really thought of Packer as a suspect. It appeared to me his story was influenced. What's your take on that?"

I think he was influenced by what he believed SY wanted to hear.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz's last few hours

Hello Curious. I notice your musings to Mike about Jack. Excellent! As long as all of us are thinking about Liz's last few hours rather than waving our hands through it, I'm sure we'll eventually get an answer.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike.

"Now, If she faced the gates, and he came out the already open kitchen door . . . "

And it would be great if his name were K-something-ski.

The best.
LC

I feel that the only murder a clearly insane man might have been guilty of that Fall was Martha's or Mary's .....I can see genuinely evil men doing the rest of them, but men that were in command of their emotions and actions.

Evil men or a man could have killed Polly and Annie,... any cruel man with a knife could have killed Liz,... and evil and spiteful come to mind when assessing Kate's injuries after death. But the speed and accuracy shown with C1, C2 and C4 suggest a man with mental and physical focus.

Anytime you line Liz Stride up against any of the victims that Fall including Martha, you get the undeniable sense that her murder was mundane in comparison.

She stands out like a mule at a Unicorn convention.

Best regards LC

[lynn cates]

onagers and stuff

Hello Mike.

"She stands out like a mule at a Unicorn convention."

Is this to imply that I've made an ass of myself? (snicker!)

I can't disagree that Liz's demise looks as you have described. I had a peek at Tom's chap on another thread. Could this be a run in by Liz with her pimp?

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

Clenched Fists, Asphyxia, & Terminal Motor Activity

Oh, those damn cachous... Well, I think we can agree on the following:

Either the cachous were in Liz's hand as she died OR they were deliberately placed there by someone else after her death.

Personally, I can't see the killer taking even a split second to put them there, especially when Diemschutz was fast approaching.
If the killer had time to do anything at all before fleeing I think he would have attempted to vent his frustration by giving the body a few more angry cuts with his knife.

So perhaps the fact that Liz still had the packet of cachous in her hand is another indication that she was rapidly and aggressively choked just before her throat was cut? As we know, the doctors believed she had been strangled with her own kerchief, which was pulled tightly to one side.

There's a reflexive action frequently seen in those who die of the various forms of Asphyxia: as they are losing consciousness, they often involuntarily clench their fists. Thus clenched fists are not only a sign of the last desperate physical effort effort to throw off one's attacker, restore one's oxygen supply, etc.
This phenomenon is often seen in victims of drowning, who clutch convulsively at long underwater grasses. It's also seen in victims of carbon monoxide poisoning, who die with clenched fists even if they had been sleeping when their oxygen supply was disrupted, and despite the fact that there is nothing in their hands. It's also seen in those who are smothered or strangled.
Clenched fists are a form of 'terminal motor activity', the last spasmodic motor-reactions of the body before death. Fist-clenching can be completely involuntary and do to strange motor-impulses, just like the little jerks and twitches sometimes seen in the dying.

Maybe the killer strangled Liz to the point where she was nearly but not quite dead, then cut her throat either as he was laying her down or as soon as he had put her on the ground.
- I wonder if it is more likely to be the latter in this particular case, because the killer would want her down low to the ground and concealed from view in the shadows as quickly as possible before Diemschutz arrived at the gate.
He may have had to depart slightly from his usual methods in order to avoid being seen by the approaching cart-man.

As Liz's throat was slashed and she was bleeding to death her hands would have relaxed somewhat, leaving the package of cachous in her hand.

Any thoughts?

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Archaic. I have nothing to offer against this. But I'm not sure how long he strangled her. A second or two should cause the spasmodic clench, then a cut and finally the deposition on her side.

Thanks.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

I think I would agree with Lynn there, the overall length of the entire attack may have been 2 seconds including the cut, so the "strangulation" would just be a by product of how he grabbed her,...it doesnt appear as if she was fully subdued and forced into a semi or fully unconscious state, as were some of the other victims.

And yes Lynn, someone like a mean ass pimp might be a good candidate. I didnt mean to disparage your thread premise entirely, just wanted to ensure that when people make suggestions about how Jack was involved here they are cognizant that the physical evidence is not in their favor.

All the best

[lynn cates]

pimp

Hello Mike. The pimp angle would be consonant with the BS man (and even pipe man) business. PM could be the pimp; BSM his thug.

If Liz had done business with him in the past, but not on that night, it might explain the quarrel. If Liz judged him rough, but not a murderer, it might explain her turning her back on him whilst in the yard.

The best.
LC