saving Liz Stride

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, because her feet were measured at 9' from the gates. Perhaps it was improperly measured?

Could you please give me your source for this? This is incorrect, but I'd like to know the source.

I think Liz was either facing the wall or down the passageway when she was attacked. I believe she was unconscious when killed because there was no sign of struggle, she did not reach for her throat, her hands were not very tightened, etc. Since the medical evidence ruled out strangulation, poison, and a blow to the head, I think it quite possible she fainted. This would indicate she was frightened and lends some credence to my idea that she and some of the other victims were controled through fear of harm by someone robbing them. I believe the Ripper adopted this approach following the messy and unsatisfying murder of Polly Nichols.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Possibly so. But then not ALL SY agreed. (At any rate, that is found in the A-Z.)

I'm not saying Scotland Yard is the be all end all, but let's remember they were the only folks in history who ever had more information on the murders at their disposal than us, via the Casebook and books. They were human, they erred, but they were professionals whose opinions deserve serious respect and consideration. Having said that, I'm not a SY apologist.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

distance source

Hello Tom.

"Her feet were three yards from the gateway."

This is from Dr. Blackwell's inquest testimony and the fact that 3 yards = 9 ft. (I always express it in feet since I think I can judge feet better than yards.)

You make me wonder, was there another distance estimate that I missed?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

SY

Hello Tom.

"I'm not a SY apologist."

Nor I. I was merely indicating that the SY verdict was not unanimous.

(As an aside, I notice that the historians [eg, Sugden] prefer Liz as a ripper victim]; the ex-cops [eg, Marriott], not. I suppose it has to do with one's fach.)

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

Yes, that quote you provided is from the Daily Telegraph. Generally, that paper's coverage of the Stride inquest is very good, and certainly better than the heavily flawed Times. However, that is a mistake. It is bore out by the other witnesses, including the policemen present, that Stride was just inside the gateway and her feet came to the swing of the gate. Had her feet been 3 yards inside the gateway, her head would have literally been on the kitchen steps.

I believe only one Ripper author of high repute seriously suggests that Stride was not a Ripper victim, and that's Stewart Evans.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

18 feet

Hello Tom. It is my understanding that there is 18' of passageway from the gates to the kitchen door. So, given the 9', her head would be 4 or 5 feet from the door.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I didn't do the math. Was just making a point. Nevertheless, when Blackwell was quoted by the DT saying 'her feet were against the right wall', what he meant to say was 'her feet were against the right gate', since it's physically impossible for her feet to have been against the right wall. The policeman in charge of the scene stated her feet came to the swing of the gate. So do other sources. There's no question this was the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I think Liz was either facing the wall or down the passageway when she was attacked. I believe she was unconscious when killed because there was no sign of struggle, she did not reach for her throat, her hands were not very tightened, etc. Since the medical evidence ruled out strangulation, poison, and a blow to the head, I think it quite possible she fainted. This would indicate she was frightened and lends some credence to my idea that she and some of the other victims were controled through fear of harm by someone robbing them. I believe the Ripper adopted this approach following the messy and unsatisfying murder of Polly Nichols.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think some of what you claim above Tom is disputed within the Inquest statements made by Dr Phillips, and some is really just misleading.

A misleading part would be that "since the medical evidence ruled out strangulation".....because that would only only be as the cause of death. Blackwell states "I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling". Clearly the suggestion is that she was choked or strangled with the scarf, and by the comments following, that she need not have lost any consciousness, because that act and the cut itself may have taken 2 seconds combined.

There also seems to be some lack of clarity as to how and where Liz was found...."The deceased was lying on her left side obliquely across the passage, her face looking towards the right wall. Her legs were drawn up, her feet close against the wall of the right side of the passage. Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut. Her feet were three yards from the gateway."

She was close to the gates, not the side door, if anything it appears she was grabbed from behind by the scarf as she faced the gates...the scarf was twisted tightly to the left, (that would be the club wall), and as she lost balance a knife slid under her jaw and sliced her throat as she was dropped, on her side, across the path with her head across the gutter. Very probably still conscious, and clenching a packet of cachous in a reflexive manner. She never moves and no-one before the Club boys or Spooner touches her. Certainly not her killer.

And you suggest without any evidence that supports it at all that she was possibly a robbery target.

Seems to me that what you chastise others for you engage in freely yourself. Hmm.

The evidence also shows that Liz held cachous when she was attacked, something highly improbable based on some "fearful" state you suggest she was in. I suppose thats fear left over from her being accosted in the street by a Broadshouldered fella...odd that if she was scared of the company she was in she would automatically reach for her breath mints for safety.

Well, nice breath first I guess, no matter what the circumstances. I guess thats something like the clean underwear adage.

My best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

You missed the mark...again. Anyone else would know I meant manual strangulation, by hands, since I talked indepth about the scarf. She was not strangled to unconsciousness by the scarf, however. Also, we do have a good idea of how and where she was lying. As I stated, she was lying near the gates, not the door.

Now how have I mislead anyone?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Lynn when they closed the gates to the entrance to Dutfields Yard, the gate swept against the feet of Liz Stride as Tom Wescott has indicated, it only just cleared her feet. The entrance was nine feet in width, there were two gates one either side which met in the middle, so by my reckoning Liz Stride's feet were four feet six inches into the yard.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, her feet would have been about 4 1/2 feet into the yard. But thanks for that, Observer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Go and look at the photograph of Berner Street which clearly shows the entrance to Dutfields Yard, it's featured here in the Casebook archive.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

gates

Hello Tom and Observer. Where did the gates brush her feet? Can you direct me to that?

I can see being off by a foot, but from 9 feet to 4 1/2 feet? That's quite a distance to be off.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

If the gateway is 9' 2", then each gate would be about 4 1/2 feet wide. It would fold back to this length against the wall. Since Stride's foot would be at the swing of the gate, it would thus be about 4 1/2 feet into the yard from the gateway. 3 1/2 feet at the least.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

just inside the gates

Hello Tom. Or, if the 9' is correct, her feet (with legs drawn up) would be about 4 feet away--just inside the gates.

The best.
LC