From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Tom_Wescott]

Please see my replies below.

But what is he accusing the Jews of, if by writing the message and leaving the bloody apron he is confessing to being the killer himself? I see it the other way. He is telling the police that the men of the international Working Men's Club are not guilty because he (obviously) is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

But if only the killer could have left the apron, then how could he blame the Jews without himself being a Jew?


Do you mean, how could he blame the Jews if he himself was a Jew? ?



And in that case, why refer to the Jews in the third person? He didn't write 'We the Juwes are the men...'.


I made a similar point a few months ago.

I argued that had the message been pro-Jewish - that is to say, denying Jewish responsibility for something - and written by a Jew, it would have started something like:

We Jews ...

and that the actual wording, The Jews are the men ... is obviously accusatory.

I received the customary response that I was making a supposition.

[Curious Cat]

I agree also that he was lucky - especially on the night of the double murder.

Of course, he must have wanted to maintain the mystery, but he must also have wanted to survive!

There's a difference between survival instinct and wanting to maintain the mystery.

Had the killer been looking to maintain the mystery but was caught they would most likely have owned up straight away and hidden nothing from that point on. There would no longer be any reason to maintain the mystery.

Had the killer been going by survival instinct but was caught they would more likely continue to hide as much as they could and deny any involvement even to the point of being faced with the most obvious evidence. They would still believe there was a chance of getting out of the situation.

[Tom_Wescott]

The murderer was not seeking credit.

His sole purpose was to blame the Jews for the murders.

That is why he cut the apron in two, carried it such a long distance, and left a message blaming the Jews practically pointing to the apron piece, which had bloodstains from the latest victim.

But if only the killer could have left the apron, then how could he blame the Jews without himself being a Jew? And in that case, why refer to the Jews in the third person? He didn't write 'We the Juwes are the men...'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

I agree with Trevor on this. If the Ripper had any concerns about getting credit why go about it in such a half ass way? Why not something along the lines of "tonight it was two" or something specific about the crimes?

By the way, welcome back. Hope you intend to put in some time here. You and Sam back as well. The gods have smiled on us.

c.d.

C.D!!!! I could better answer that question if we had a photo of what was actually written. Instead, we have only an idea of what was written upon which to speculate. But Eddowes' apron under a message written claiming responsibility for the body next to the Jewish club is the most obvious explanation for the whole thing. I can speculate that he intended to write a message above Eddowes' corpose but opted instead to flee with the apron, but who knows. The location in Goulston Street makes sense as it provided him cover and was quiet as he knelt low and wrote his message close to the ground so that it WOULD be linked to the bloody apron. The writing - both the message and its location - make zero sense outside of its connection to the apron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No, it is correct. Anderson espoused that the GSG was, in fact, written by the Ripper. Though of course he couldn't know that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree with you that Anderson believed that the GSG was written by the murderer (and I agree with him on that point) and it is a very significant fact, because many years later he claimed that the murderer was Jewish, whereas the idea that the GSG had been written by a Jew had evidently never been seriously considered by him or his colleagues.

But his use of the words definitely ascertained fact had nothing to do with the GSG, but rather with the identity of the murderer:


In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom
But by leaving the apron and writing the graffiti in that off-road location how was he to know that they would ever be found, and more importantly linked to the Eddowes murder because for a start the graffiti bore no relevance to any murder past or present, and the apron piece was nothing more than a screwed up piece of rag.?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor, good to see you still kicking around. To answer your question, I'd say it was the same with the bodies he left around. He expected someone would find them and report them. And they did. Where but on a wall would you expect someone to write graffiti?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Aethelwulf]

Reposting Christian's image of Goulston Street from post#7. As you can see there are four identical entrances (not sure what is out of shot to the right). Each entrance looks like it leads to a central stairwell (the raised brickwork columns). It is a bit of a coincidence that the unrelated graffiti artist and JTR chose the exact same entrance. There must have been dozens and dozens of people going in and out of these buildings every day, and I think to suggest a message that could be taken as racist (and very easily rubbed out) just being left there is unrealistic. It would be like someone going to an area of a town/city/estate/street inhabited by a particular racial group and writing something that could be taken as racist and the locals saying 'nah, we see that all the time, just leave it'. Isn't going to happen IMO.

[Tom_Wescott]

That is not correct.

He used those words when he was claiming that the Whitechapel Murderer was a Polish Jew.

My own use of those words was meant humorously.

No, it is correct. Anderson espoused that the GSG was, in fact, written by the Ripper. Though of course he couldn't know that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well I think the killer had enormous luck on their side not to get caught. What wasn't luck isn't necessarily down to their survival instinct, more the will of their mission...to maintain the mystery.

I agree also that he was lucky - especially on the night of the double murder.

Of course, he must have wanted to maintain the mystery, but he must also have wanted to survive!

[Curious Cat]

I agree.

I would add that the murderer's survival instinct played a part in the timing of the cessation of the murders.

Well I think the killer had enormous luck on their side not to get caught. What wasn't luck isn't necessarily down to their survival instinct, more the will of their mission...to maintain the mystery.

[Abby Normal]

btw i beleive your in the DMV area? looks like finally this rain will let up and the sun will come later this afternoon. happy saturday!

Why thank you. I believe you are a hiker. Just got the Sunday Afternoon Ultra Adventure Hat. Damn, what a nice hat. Phenomenal reviews all over the internet. Yes, very dorky but super protection and super lightweight and comfortable. Got it from REI but looks like it is even cheaper on amazon. Check it out if you need a good sun hat.

c.d.

hi cd
yes i am. love hiking around the potomac, and bay, beach and mountains! thats what i love about this area, its got it all! thanks for the tip about the hat, ill have to check it out.

[c.d.]

btw i beleive your in the DMV area? looks like finally this rain will let up and the sun will come later this afternoon. happy saturday!

Why thank you. I believe you are a hiker. Just got the Sunday Afternoon Ultra Adventure Hat. Damn, what a nice hat. Phenomenal reviews all over the internet. Yes, very dorky but super protection and super lightweight and comfortable. Got it from REI but looks like it is even cheaper on amazon. Check it out if you need a good sun hat.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

then a short time later, while trying to finagle eddowes into mitre square, hes seen by three more jews(and yes he may not have known they were jewish, but perhaps he did, or inferred it) who were speaking disparagingly about him.

Hello Abby,

Isn't it reasonable to assume that the Ripper was seen by a number of people that night not just Jews? Where is the evidence that he heard them speaking disparagingly about him? Does that come from Lawende? I have never heard that before.

c.d.

Hi cd
yes he probably was but it was the jewish men who were pestering him. there is no evidence he heard lawende and company complaining about him, but the ripper was nothing if not alert and perceptive and it wouldnt be too surprising if he had heard them. at the very least they were hanging around watching him talk to eddowes so he was probably annoyed at that.

btw i beleive your in the DMV area? looks like finally this rain will let up and the sun will come later this afternoon. happy saturday!

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Not to feed into the argument of "knowing" the killer's motive, but my thought has long been that they intended their identity and motive to actually be an ongoing mystery. They didn't want to be identified but they also didn't want someone else either taking credit or being believed to be the person behind the killings. They wanted the whole case to remain unsolved and their part in it to be solely known and understood by them. The power of having that knowledge would be as intoxicating as the carrying out of the murders themselves. That's why they stopped. They reached their ideal position of creating the situation and then living out the legacy.

That is my speculative opinion anyway.

I agree.

I would add that the murderer's survival instinct played a part in the timing of the cessation of the murders.