From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[c.d.]

then a short time later, while trying to finagle eddowes into mitre square, hes seen by three more jews(and yes he may not have known they were jewish, but perhaps he did, or inferred it) who were speaking disparagingly about him.

Hello Abby,

Isn't it reasonable to assume that the Ripper was seen by a number of people that night not just Jews? Where is the evidence that he heard them speaking disparagingly about him? Does that come from Lawende? I have never heard that before.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Neither Schwartz nor Lawende interrupted the ripper . If Schwartz is 100% accurate in what he saw it didn't stop the killer murdering Liz. And if we argue that he was interrupted in the mutilation the person most likely to have done this was Diemschultz who was Jewish, but since Dutfield's yard was pitch black more or less, the assailant would hardly notice this, if indeed he saw Diemschultz at all. As for Mitre sq the three Jewish gentlemen certainly [ again ] didn't stop the murder nor the mutilation . If anyone interrupted the ripper there it would be PC Watkin.

As for the apron being found near some graffiti mentioning the Jews, and it being a big coincidence if not connected. The area had its fair share of Jews and predominantly Jewish buildings. How do we know there wasn't other scrawlings on walls for or against the Jews further up the street say ?
I believe Walter Dew mentioned something like this .

Regards Darryl

hi DK, sunny and cd
Repectfully,but i couldnt disagree more. the ripper was interupted and seen while attacking stride by schwartz, who abberline described as having a strong jewish appearance, which pissed him off so much he yelled a disparaging jewish slur at him and probably led to him bolting before he could finish with mutilations. then a short time later, while trying to finagle eddowes into mitre square, hes seen by three more jews(and yes he may not have known they were jewish, but perhaps he did, or inferred it) who were speaking disparagingly about him.

imho thats why he cut her apron to sign the gsg to get back at them, obsfucate things, and throw some shade their way, perhaps hoping to fuel the jewish ripper theory which had recently been going around with the leather apron/pizer events. it also helps explain the sequence of events that night, with it it not being there when long went past the first time, because he went back to his bolt hole, clean up and grab some chalk before heading out to place it at a jewish residing building.

The police at the time thought it was from the ripper and it ties up all the evidence from the night of the double event. And it worked like a charm, probably better than the ripper expected.

There really shouldnt be any doubt the Gsg was written by the ripper, not to me anyway.

[Curious Cat]

Not to feed into the argument of "knowing" the killer's motive, but my thought has long been that they intended their identity and motive to actually be an ongoing mystery. They didn't want to be identified but they also didn't want someone else either taking credit or being believed to be the person behind the killings. They wanted the whole case to remain unsolved and their part in it to be solely known and understood by them. The power of having that knowledge would be as intoxicating as the carrying out of the murders themselves. That's why they stopped. They reached their ideal position of creating the situation and then living out the legacy.

That is my speculative opinion anyway.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So you know the intent of the murderer? Damn, that is impressive. The rest of us just have to speculate.

c.d.

There is no need to speculate about whether the murderer was trying to exploit the local anti-Jewish prejudice excited by the murders.

It is quite obvious that he did,

[c.d.]

The murderer was not seeking credit.

His sole purpose was to blame the Jews for the murders.

That is why he cut the apron in two, carried it such a long distance, and left a message blaming the Jews practically pointing to the apron piece, which had bloodstains from the latest victim.

So you know the intent of the murderer? Damn, that is impressive. The rest of us just have to speculate.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hello Tom,

I agree with Trevor on this. If the Ripper had any concerns about getting credit why go about it in such a half ass way? Why not something along the lines of "tonight it was two" or something specific about the crimes?


c.d.

The murderer was not seeking credit.

His sole purpose was to blame the Jews for the murders.

That is why he cut the apron in two, carried it such a long distance, and left a message blaming the Jews practically pointing to the apron piece, which had bloodstains from the latest victim.

[c.d.]

If the GSG referred to anything I believe it could only have been the Berner Street Club, plastered as it was outside in Hebrew literature. The point of leaving Eddowe's apron beneath the writing was to connect the two crimes. He was concerned he wouldn't get credit for Stride due to the lack of mutilation. He needn't have worried, as it turns out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I agree with Trevor on this. If the Ripper had any concerns about getting credit why go about it in such a half ass way? Why not something along the lines of "tonight it was two" or something specific about the crimes?

By the way, welcome back. Hope you intend to put in some time here. You and Sam back as well. The gods have smiled on us.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That's what Anderson said, too, about the Ripper writing the GSG.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That is not correct.

He used those words when he was claiming that the Whitechapel Murderer was a Polish Jew.

My own use of those words was meant humorously.

[Aethelwulf]

But by leaving the apron and writing the graffiti in that off-road location how was he to know that they would ever be found, and more importantly linked to the Eddowes murder because for a start the graffiti bore no relevance to any murder past or present, and the apron piece was nothing more than a screwed up piece of rag.?

I did reply to your content:

• You're arguing about something that did happen as if it didn't.
• The rag was found and matched to Eddowes' apron.

Also, the ripper knew the local area well. He would probably have had an idea of what passed for ordinary graffiti compared to what might be taken notice of, as proved by events.

I introduced the side issue because it is relevant. Across multiple threads it can be shown that your one and only interest in the apron is trying to prove it was actually a sanitary towel.

[Trevor Marriott]

You're arguing about something that did happen as if it didn't.

The rag was found and matched to Eddowes' apron.

It doesn't matter want angle you try and put on it, it wasn't a sanitary towel!

I am simply asking a question that in my opinion is totally relevant to the matter being discussed

If you are going to reply kindly reply to the content of the post you are replying to and do not introduce side issues which at this time are not relevant

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Tom
But by leaving the apron and writing the graffiti in that off-road location how was he to know that they would ever be found, and more importantly linked to the Eddowes murder because for a start the graffiti bore no relevance to any murder past or present, and the apron piece was nothing more than a screwed up piece of rag.?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You're arguing about something that did happen as if it didn't.

The rag was found and matched to Eddowes' apron.

It doesn't matter want angle you try and put on it, it wasn't a sanitary towel!

[Aethelwulf]

If the GSG referred to anything I believe it could only have been the Berner Street Club, plastered as it was outside in Hebrew literature. The point of leaving Eddowe's apron beneath the writing was to connect the two crimes. He was concerned he wouldn't get credit for Stride due to the lack of mutilation. He needn't have worried, as it turns out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes that is exactly as I see it. I was just speculating that as well he may have had an underlying prejudice.

[Trevor Marriott]

If the GSG referred to anything I believe it could only have been the Berner Street Club, plastered as it was outside in Hebrew literature. The point of leaving Eddowe's apron beneath the writing was to connect the two crimes. He was concerned he wouldn't get credit for Stride due to the lack of mutilation. He needn't have worried, as it turns out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
But by leaving the apron and writing the graffiti in that off-road location how was he to know that they would ever be found, and more importantly linked to the Eddowes murder because for a start the graffiti bore no relevance to any murder past or present, and the apron piece was nothing more than a screwed up piece of rag.?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes that too. I reckon JtR already had some petty grievance (real or imagined) against the Jewish community (maybe along the lines of 'why are they doing better than me' in a racist context). Schwartz and Lawende reminded him of his prejudice.

If the GSG referred to anything I believe it could only have been the Berner Street Club, plastered as it was outside in Hebrew literature. The point of leaving Eddowe's apron beneath the writing was to connect the two crimes. He was concerned he wouldn't get credit for Stride due to the lack of mutilation. He needn't have worried, as it turns out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

This may be a dumb question because the answer may be obvious, but I'm sure there may be more than one opinion on this and I'm interested
to the hear them all:

Why did Crawford spend so much time establishing the actual spelling of the second word (the "J" word") of the writing on the wall?

Martyn

More like 'attempting' to establish it, since they were never able to reach a consensus. He must have been as perplexed as we are as to why no two people could read that sentence or remember it the same way, and the second word is the crux of the whole thing. If it even was a word, that is. We'll never know thanks to the "abundance of caution" on display that night. Man, I wish I had a photograph of that writing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott