From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Losmandris]

I'm not sure the police beat logistics and so on would work for PC Harvey, but it's possible that someone came along and that meant dropping the apron was a good idea.

Personally, I'd got for: he was far enough away from the crime scene, there was nobody around, and he took the opportunity to pause and get himself together for the walk home.

Makes perfect sense. Could even have been taken as a trophy in itself only for him to change his mind about it on the way home.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Maybe that is why he got rid of the apron piece. He sees Harvey coming towards him so casually drops the incriminating evidence.

I'm not sure the police beat logistics and so on would work for PC Harvey, but it's possible that someone came along and that meant dropping the apron was a good idea.

Personally, I'd got for: he was far enough away from the crime scene, there was nobody around, and he took the opportunity to pause and get himself together for the walk home.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In the event we are to believe other newspapers' reporting of the inquest, then it would suggest that Joseph was concerned for his welfare, which is unlikely to have been induced from a belief that prostitution was about to take place but rather that a mugging could be in the offing.

There is no reason to suppose that Levy was afraid that the woman with the bonnet might attack him.

He may, however, have been worried that the man - who was described by Lawende as rough-looking - might attack him, or that others like him might be about at such a late hour and they might attack him.

He did say that he was rarely out later than 11 p.m.

There really is no reason to think that the woman was doing anything other than soliciting.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The only evidence we have of business being conducted at around the time of the murder in that area is of a rough man who had the appearance of a sailor being charmed by a woman who had her hand on his chest in a passage off Duke Street that led to Mitre Square.

The only evidence you have there is a couple standing at the corner of a passage. That does happen for reasons that have nothing to do with the intent you're suggesting.

You're basing this on Joseph Levy thinking they were 'up to no good'. Firstly, that is Joseph's intuition, assuming Joseph wasn't proven to hold supernatural powers that enabled him to predict the future. Secondly, 'up to no good' could quite easily have meant something outside of the intent you're suggesting.

In fact, according to other reports from the inquest, Joseph said more:

I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about.

In the event we are to believe other newspapers' reporting of the inquest, then it would suggest that Joseph was concerned for his welfare, which is unlikely to have been induced from a belief that prostitution was about to take place but rather that a mugging could be in the offing.

[GBinOz]

I meant


I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and use the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...

instead of

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...


Otherwise, some readers might think you meant

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack ... used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...

which is not what you meant.

Ahh, I see. You're correct. That's not what I meant. Thank you.

Cheers, George

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do you mean use instead of used?

Huh??

I meant


I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and use the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...

instead of

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...


Otherwise, some readers might think you meant

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack ... used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped...

which is not what you meant.

[GBinOz]

Do you mean use instead of used?
Huh??

If you are arguing that he could have deposited the organs at his lodgings, after which he disposed of the incriminating piece of cloth in a predominately Jewish area of residence, with an accompanying accusation, then I agree.
If he did carry away organs, IMO he would have come prepared for that task.

As for the possible bloody hand mark on the apron, is it not just as likely that he wiped blood from an uncut hand on the apron?

Hi FM,

He could have quickly wiped blood from his hands and knife at the scene, rather than take away incriminating evidence. I think he needed the apron portion to address an unanticipated occurrence that needed time to resolve itself. JMO.

Cheers, George

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped, or he reached a bolt hole, after which he disposed of the incriminating piece of cloth in a predominately Jewish area of residence, with an accompanying accusation. JMO.

Do you mean use instead of used?

If you are arguing that he could have deposited the organs at his lodgings, after which he disposed of the incriminating piece of cloth in a predominately Jewish area of residence, with an accompanying accusation, then I agree.

As for the possible bloody hand mark on the apron, is it not just as likely that he wiped blood from an uncut hand on the apron?

[GBinOz]

Inquest report filed in the Corporation of London Records Office - written statements of witnesses at the Eddowes Inquest:
Alfred Long 254 A, Metropolitan Police Force, being sworn saith - "I was on duty in Goulston street, Whitechapel on the 30th September, about 2.55 AM. I found a portion of a woman's apron which I produce. There appeared blood stains on it, one portion was wet, lying in a passage leading to the staircases of 108 to 119 Model Dwelling House."

Inquest - Alfred Long:
[Coroner] Which did you notice first - the piece of apron or the writing on the wall? - The piece of apron, one corner of which was wet with blood.

Inquest - Dr Brown - Daily news 5 Oct:
My attention was called to the apron which the woman was wearing. It was a portion of an apron cut, with the string attached to it (produced). The blood stains on it are recent. Dr. Phillips brought in a piece of apron found in Gouldstone street, which fits what is missing in the one found on the body. It is impossible to assert that the blood is human blood. It looks as if it had had a bloody hand or a bloody knife wiped upon it.

The portion of apron that Eddowes was still wearing was spotted with blood. The portion found in Goulston street is reported as having one corner wet with blood by Long, and stains of a bloody hand or knife by Brown.

If the apron was used to wipe hands or knife, why was that not done at the scene without the necessity to cut and carry away an incriminating piece of evidence? If it was used to carry away organs, what happened to the organs after the cloth was abandoned?

I am as yet unpersuaded that Jack didn't cut himself, an unanticipated occurrence requiring an adhoc solution, and used the apron piece to stem the flow until it had stopped, or he reached a bolt hole, after which he disposed of the incriminating piece of cloth in a predominately Jewish area of residence, with an accompanying accusation. JMO.

Cheers, George

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You've been reading about this case for a good while, Jon, have you ever come across Duke Street, or Mitre Street for that matter, being a place for women to congregate for purposes of prostitution? If not, then the better bet is that Aldgate High Street was where they met and Mitre Square was where they 'did business'.

The only evidence we have of business being conducted at around the time of the murder in that area is of a rough man who had the appearance of a sailor being charmed by a woman who had her hand on his chest in a passage off Duke Street that led to Mitre Square.

[Losmandris]

Something else may have played a part - whether Eddowes bumped into the killer, or the killer came across Eddowes.
Was she taking a short cut through St. James Place or Mitre Square and he was there, perhaps also passing through.
Or, did they meet up out on a main street, and she suggested "I know a quiet place", and led him the Mitre Sq.?

If we assume the killer fled east from Mitre Sq. when passing G.S. - heading home?, then why was he heading west from Berner Street to end up at Mitre Sq., in the first place?

Heading towards St Boltophs, a known spot for prostitutes. Too late to pick someone up in a pub. So he had to find an alternative.

[Losmandris]

'Seems the thread has lost its direction.

Mitre Square to Goulston Street.

In the event the murderer simply stumbled upon Goulston Street, broadly walking in that direction, as the OP suggests; then how did he avoid PC Harvey?

Maybe that is why he got rid of the apron piece. He sees Harvey coming towards him so casually drops the incriminating evidence.

[The Rookie Detective]

If we assume the killer fled east from Mitre Sq. when passing G.S. - heading home?, then why was he heading west from Berner Street to end up at Mitre Sq., in the first place?

A most excellent question Jon

The killer heads WEST after Stride, and then EAST after Eddowes, With the GSG between the 2 locations.

So...

Could the reason the killer headed west, be because he chose to deliberately head out of Met jurisdiction and into the City of London?
That would have a lot of benefits to the killer.

Of course, if Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, then he may not have been as far East anyway and already been near Mitre Square before Eddowes murder AND at the time Stride was murdered by another man.

If we mark the locations of Stride's murder, Eddowe's murder, and the GSG, then do those 3 points make any sense in terms of geo-profiling?


RD

[Fleetwood Mac]

Something else may have played a part - whether Eddowes bumped into the killer, or the killer came across Eddowes.
Was she taking a short cut through St. James Place or Mitre Square and he was there, perhaps also passing through.
Or, did they meet up out on a main street, and she suggested "I know a quiet place", and led him the Mitre Sq.?

If we assume the killer fled east from Mitre Sq. when passing G.S. - heading home?, then why was he heading west from Berner Street to end up at Mitre Sq., in the first place?

You'd have to ask the question: why did a woman known for prostitution head away from home at one in the morning, what business would she have in doing that, and in the event it was prostitution; then why wouldn't that woman head for the place known for prostitution? Aldgate High Street. And in the event she headed there, which seems most reasonable, then Houndsditch would be the obvious route; which of course wouldn't involve going by Mitre Square.

As for the murderer, Aldgate High Street would seem a decent bet. An area known for vulnerable women/targets.

You've been reading about this case for a good while, Jon, have you ever come across Duke Street, or Mitre Street for that matter, being a place for women to congregate for purposes of prostitution? If not, then the better bet is that Aldgate High Street was where they met and Mitre Square was where they 'did business'.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If we assume the killer fled east from Mitre Sq. when passing G.S. - heading home?, then why was he heading west from Berner Street to end up at Mitre Sq., in the first place?

You are assuming he did not go home from Berner Street.