From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Aethelwulf]

It's a poor analogy in your view because you make assumptions that have not been verified. Your mind is partially made up to start with.
Your view doesn't work if the two are not related, and there's no proof they ever were.

Contrary to the results of your mind experiment I am open to the possibility of a coincidence, I just find it the less likely possibility, given the events that night.


Racial graffiti is everywhere, especially in downtown areas, on railway carriages, factory walls, public toilets. Residential buildings are not so much targeted today, one reason might be no-one knows who are resident, but they are often well lighted anyway, but lets not go down a rabbit-hole...
No-one knows if the Jewish residents were sufficiently literate to know what the graffiti said, and no-one knows when it first appeared.
The City police were the ones who went door-to-door throughout the tenement speaking to the residents, only they knew if the police had answers to those questions.

It was a poor analogy and what you've added hasn't improved your idea. Most likely no one is going to be bothered about racial graffiti on a bus or toilets as there is no sense of community about those places. A wall in a stairwell going into a residential building is different. Perhaps things are different 'downtown' (whatever that means).

There were some chalk messages before the GSG, one on a wall at Hanbury Street claiming it was the third murder, which would make sense with tabram, nicholls, chapman. There was also message, not long before Kelly but further away that threatened to kill another woman and this time he 'would receive her heart'. Obviously this was after the double event so could be a copycat but the word 'receive' sounds both creepy and may tally with what he was doing with the organs. Perhaps the ripper did like to communicate. If you like the idea of some of the letters being genuine, that may be the case.

Originally posted by Wiggins:

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The police investigated all sorts of people Jewish and Gentile, John Sanders , John Pizer , Tumblety , Druitt, Ostrog, Charles Ludwig to name a few . Not all of them where Jewish. Plus enquires were made at slaughter houses etc

That's different from saying that the murderer had to be Jewish.

[Darryl Kenyon]

As I stated before, it is possible that a Polish Jew could have been a serial killer and not been identified, but very unlikely.

But as you are now referring to the Whitechapel murders, it is obvious that the whole idea of the murderer being Jewish was based on prejudice, as in other notorious cases in other countries.

In such cases, it does not turn out that the pogromists were right about the identity or religious affiliation of the murderer.

As I wrote before, it is quite obvious that neither the suspect seen by Schwartz nor the one described by Lawende was a Polish Jew.

And it is also obvious that the murderer was playing the same game as the young men who marched down Hanbury Street declaring that the murderer had to be a Jew, a sentiment echoed by Anderson to his eternal shame.

The police investigated all sorts of people Jewish and Gentile, John Sanders , John Pizer , Tumblety , Druitt, Ostrog, Charles Ludwig to name a few . Not all of them where Jewish. Plus enquires were made at slaughter houses etc

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

None of the above proves that a Polish Jew could not be the killer.

As I stated before, it is possible that a Polish Jew could have been a serial killer and not been identified, but very unlikely.

But as you are now referring to the Whitechapel murders, it is obvious that the whole idea of the murderer being Jewish was based on prejudice, as in other notorious cases in other countries.

In such cases, it does not turn out that the pogromists were right about the identity or religious affiliation of the murderer.

As I wrote before, it is quite obvious that neither the suspect seen by Schwartz nor the one described by Lawende was a Polish Jew.

And it is also obvious that the murderer was playing the same game as the young men who marched down Hanbury Street declaring that the murderer had to be a Jew, a sentiment echoed by Anderson to his eternal shame.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I mentioned specifically Polish Jews because it is being alleged that the murderer was a Polish Jew.

I have pointed out differences between Jews and Gentiles in the East End of London in the late nineteenth century.

When I mentioned the fact that they were easy to distinguish, my comments were widely ridiculed, but there is plenty of evidence that what I asserted is correct.

The same goes for my comments about public displays of drunkenness and attacking women.

They were rarities among Jews.

Again, my comments have been ridiculed, but there is plenty of evidence to back them up.

Elamarna claimed that there was a high probability that the murderer was Jewish because a high percentage of the general population was Jewish.

That is an elementary mistake.

The propensity to violence among Jews was much lower than among gentiles and this was often noted at the time.

Even when I denied that a sailor suspect could be Jewish because there were no Jewish sailors, my comments were challenged by two posters who demanded to see evidence that there were no Jewish sailors.

Jews were unable even to find work in the docks owing to violence and intimidation.

Those are facts that were recorded at the time - not the politically-correct nonsense that says everyone looked the same, got drunk the same, beat women the same, and eviscerated women the same.

None of the above proves that a Polish Jew could not be the killer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I am asking you for an opinion why there couldn't be a Polish Jew serial killer

I mentioned specifically Polish Jews because it is being alleged that the murderer was a Polish Jew.

I have pointed out differences between Jews and Gentiles in the East End of London in the late nineteenth century.

When I mentioned the fact that they were easy to distinguish, my comments were widely ridiculed, but there is plenty of evidence that what I asserted is correct.

The same goes for my comments about public displays of drunkenness and attacking women.

They were rarities among Jews.

Again, my comments have been ridiculed, but there is plenty of evidence to back them up.

Elamarna claimed that there was a high probability that the murderer was Jewish because a high percentage of the general population was Jewish.

That is an elementary mistake.

The propensity to violence among Jews was much lower than among gentiles and this was often noted at the time.

Even when I denied that a sailor suspect could be Jewish because there were no Jewish sailors, my comments were challenged by two posters who demanded to see evidence that there were no Jewish sailors.

Jews were unable even to find work in the docks owing to violence and intimidation.

Those are facts that were recorded at the time - not the politically-correct nonsense that says everyone looked the same, got drunk the same, beat women the same, and eviscerated women the same.

[Curious Cat]

DC Halse and PC Long both say they did not see the apron piece when passing by the doorway around the same time - though they also managed to miss each other too so the exact time each passed that spot will always be in dispute. At the inquest, DC Halse says he would not necessarily have seen it had it been there. This was before DC Halse went to the mortuary and noticed the apron piece was missing but after seeing the body in Mitre Square. Had a bloody piece of apron been there when he was he would most definitely have noticed it. However, DC Halse didn't actually know where the apron piece had been found.

When PC Long found it 35 minutes later he removed the apron piece from the scene, so DC Halse never saw the apron piece in situ when it was found. Only PC Long knew its exact position as no-one else saw it in situ either. DC Halse would not have known either way whether he would have seen it at 2:20am, which he concedes. But PC Long says he took the apron piece to Commercial Road police station. Did he mean Commercial Street? Or was it just reported as 'Road' rather than 'Street'? Regardless, this happened while DC Halse was at the mortuary discovering that Catherine Eddowes's apron had a piece missing. It's on his return to Mitre Square to look for the apron piece that he hears it's at Leman Street police station.

How does the apron piece move from Commercial Road/Street police station to Leman Street police station? Or is PC Long mistaking the station he was stationed at - Leman Street - as being called Commercial Road police station? He's completely new to the beat that night so not knowing the actual name of his new station* is maybe forgivable but this is 10 days later and no-one appears to correct him either.

If PC Long is confusing the name of the station he is stationed at on the night of the murder, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine he may have confused what was written on the wall.


* Is it known exactly when he was transferred from Whitehall to Whitechapel?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Are you asking me for my opinion?

As you may be aware, I have been regularly accused of stating my opinion as fact.

I am asking you for an opinion why there couldn't be a Polish Jew serial killer

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Can you please explain to me why there couldn't be a polish Jew serial killer. Is there psychological make up different from everyone else for instance.

Are you asking me for my opinion?

As you may be aware, I have been regularly accused of stating my opinion as fact.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I have only just noticed your reply to me.

I saw Roger's explanation first.

It was Pontius2000 who previously 'refuted' my assertion that there has never been a Polish Jewish murderer on record.

I suppose I ought to offer a reward.

Can you please explain to me why there couldn't be a polish Jew serial killer. Is there psychological make up different from everyone else for instance.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Severin Klosowski [ George Chapman ], was born in Nagornak Poland. He studied Yiddish . He murdered three women what we know of.

I have only just noticed your reply to me.

I saw Roger's explanation first.

It was Pontius2000 who previously 'refuted' my assertion that there has never been a Polish Jewish murderer on record.

I suppose I ought to offer a reward.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Darryl.

"Unsurprisingly, the Jewish community felt stigmatized at being associated with a serial murderer. The Rev. Frank L. Cohen of Brixton Prison reassured readers of the Jewish Chronicle that Chapman was definitely a Gentile."

--Helen Wojtczak, Jack the Ripper at Last? p. 164

While some in the British press had identified 'Chapman' as a Jew, Klosowski was evidently a Roman Catholic...

Thank you for the info Roger

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

BTW, that's Nagórna - "Nagornak" was a mistake in HL Adam's 1930 book The Trial of George Chapman, which stuck until around 2010 when I uncovered the error. Also, I don't think Kłosowski formally studied Yiddish per se, but he'd have acquired some fluency in the language, given where he grew up and the circles he moved in.

Thank you Sam . I was being a bit pedantic in my earlier reply.

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

While some in the British press had identified 'Chapman' as a Jew, Klosowski was evidently a Roman Catholic...

Thank you for that information, Roger.

That may help to explain why a certain poster, who is conspicuous by his absence from this discussion, once countered my well-known denial that a Polish Jew could have been responsible by playing his trump card: George Chapman, Inspector Abberline's preferred suspect, had been a Polish Jew!

I pointed out politely that he was not, but his reaction was that it did not make any difference.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

There was no evidence that Michael Platt and William Matix were ever of interest to police until they were pulled over in a stolen vehicle on April 11, 1986. They were responsible for multiple armed robberies, murder and attempted murder and before the bullets stopped, they would kill two FBI agents and wound several more.


That is not true.


Police suspected Matix, whose fingerprints were found at the scene of his wife's murder, of being her murderer.


And that is not all.



The case against [Kosminski] is that a couple police had him as a suspect.


The case is not that Kosminski was a suspect, as Macnaghten described him, but the suspect, as Swanson described him, and the murderer, as Anderson described him.

If you mean that Anderson and Swanson believed Kosminski in 1888 or 1889 or even 1890 to have been responsible for the Whitechapel Murders, that can hardly be true.

Anderson had a theory about a homicidal maniac committing the murders, being insane, and being incarcerated, but there is no evidence that he had any particular suspect in mind until the twentieth century.

And there is no evidence that Swanson had any independent information other than what had been provided by Macnaghten and Anderson.

This is the only criminal case I have ever come across in which it is seriously suggested that two senior detectives established the guilt of a serial murderer by means of his identification by an unnamed witness.



We don't know why, but we can't just put it down to anti-semitism - there were plenty of other Jewish men suspected.


Anderson made three accusations against Jews: that the Jewish community protected the Whitechapel Murderer, that the Whitechapel Murderer was a Jew, and that a Jewish witness refused to testify against him and bring him to justice.

If that is not an example of anti-Semitism, then I do not know what is.



But his Jewishness has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.


There has never been a recorded case of a Polish Jewish serial murderer anywhere.

There has never been a recorded case of a Jewish serial killer in Britain.

I have challenged members to produce evidence of Polish Jews attacking gentile women in the East End of London.

So far, no-one has.