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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • #46

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    • #47
      Brune Street was renamed Butler Street and
      Dorset Street was renamed Duval Street.

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      • #48
        I like the perspective you show in your posts Leanne, I do get the sense that you want to understand the mechanics of their lives. The streets, the characters. Dawn to dusk. I have tried myself to see the behaviors that we know Kate had in her last 24hrs, and they seem to me to suggest other than normal rhythms. Her turning the opposite direction of what we are led to believe was her partner, then the length of time it takes John to wonder where she is seem out of character with what we are told about their quiet lives, together each night. From the perspective I see in your posts, do you see this as well? Something is going on in the background those last 24 hours, and I believe it was something Kate was doing. Kelly tried to keep out of it until he realized what had happened, then he came forward.

        This for me ties in extremely well with Kates attempting to get some hush money. We have the landlady's story, then the getting very drunk Saturday evening without any money of her own, then we have the left turn out of Bishopsgate, we have her meeting someone... coincidentally very near the location where a robbery was taking place that weekend..possibly that night, and we have no less than 7 policemen as the closest people to the victim at the time of the murder. Seems to me that Mitre Square had some interest that night. Here's my thinking....what if the people that bought her drinks are also the same people who rob the Post Office, what if she told the police about what her plan was in Bishopsgate and they deliberately left that out of the records, but they also arranged to have the area watched. She might know nothing about the robbery, but they might have had a tip. Just seems to me to flow along.
        Michael Richards

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Leanne View Post
          Brune Street was renamed Butler Street
          Other way round, I think - Butler Street is now Brune Street. The archway in the photo you posted has the date 1902 on it. So neither the street nor the building were there when Kate was about.
          Still interesting though.

          Edit: the Jewish soup kitchen itself did exist in 1888, but was apparently located in Leman Street.
          Last edited by Joshua Rogan; 07-15-2019, 11:08 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            You're right about Stride (I think Dr Blackwell noted some farinaceous food as well), but Eddowes had consumed farinaceous food also. The full quote from Dr Brown is: "I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped".
            Thanks Gareth
            And appreciated Joshua, but you're actually correct - my memory is usually a cluttered mess with East End artifacts
            If I can use my last Saturday night as evidence, usually after being on a bender of drinking, a person ( doesnt only want but) needs something to eat. So, did Kate wander off in search of a meal, possibly accounting for that half-hour gap in time after being reeased? Or did she merely nibble on a cracker or the likes? Farinaceous powder doesn't provide much of a clue. But, (hating to get into her digestive patterns), the fact that her colon spilled out feces must have meant that her system had processed the food from earlier that day (along with the alcohol?). So, whatever was in her stomach must have been from recent; the statement "seems very little in the way of food" means that she had eaten something.
            It appears that there were soup kitchens and there were "soup kitchens". The former were established locations guided by institutional charity; the latter were make-shift locations driven by personal charity. I read of a woman on Hanbury whose "soup kitchen" was nothing more than herself providing "gruel-on-bread" through a window of her house. I mentioned soup kitchens because it was pointed out to me a long time ago that farinaceous powder may have been indication of a creamed soup (eg a Victorian version of cream of wheat). I'm open to suggestions as to what the doctor meant by "cut end"; was there a stab wound in her stomach or is he referring to where he dissected the stomach?
            Hi aperno. I dunno about the culinary nightlife of the East End, so I'd trust Jon's post on this point. Ive read that the Salvation Army opened a men's home on Houndsditch in 1888, but don't know when exactly or what services it provided or if it served food at night. I know that there was an ex Salvation Army Captain, JJR Redstone, who was shading General Booth & the SA with a book that he distributed in 1888, thought it might provide some insight.
            there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post

              I'm open to suggestions as to what the doctor meant by "cut end"; was there a stab wound in her stomach or is he referring to where he dissected the stomach?
              The latter, I think. Brown's notes were meticulous, so I'm sure if an end of the stomach/duodenum had been cut he'd have told us explicitly.

              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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              • #52
                Hi.
                I have always believed that Eddowes was followed from the police station, , by at least one officer, and she was being used as a possible decoy. I also believe that her killer had already accosted her,. but to great cost the officer lost the couple , I also believe it is possible, that when a man asked the night watchman at Orange place ''Have you seen a man and woman pass.''? he was attempting to locate the couple.
                Regards Richard.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                  Other way round, I think - Butler Street is now Brune Street. The archway in the photo you posted has the date 1902 on it. So neither the street nor the building were there when Kate was about.
                  Still interesting though.

                  Edit: the Jewish soup kitchen itself did exist in 1888, but was apparently located in Leman Street.
                  Indeed it was:

                  Originally established in 1854 in Leman St, the Jewish Soup Kitchen opened in Brune St in 1902 and, even though it closed in 1992, the building in Spitalfields still proclaims its purpose to the world in bold ceramic lettering across the fascia. These days few remember when it was supplying groceries to fifteen hundred people weekly, which makes Photographer
                  Stuart Freedman’s
                  pictures especially interesting as a glimpse of one of the last vestiges of the Jewish East End.



                  I am trying to find an old map showing Leman Street from Whitechapel High Street to see if it could have been her intentions to end up there. Renenber she would have had to walk about until it opened.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Leanne View Post

                    Indeed it was:
                    Originally established in 1854 in Leman St, the Jewish Soup Kitchen opened in Brune St in 1902 and, even though it closed in 1992, the building in Spitalfields still proclaims its purpose to the world in bold ceramic lettering across the fascia. These days few remember when it was supplying groceries to fifteen hundred people weekly, which makes Photographer
                    Stuart Freedman’s
                    pictures especially interesting as a glimpse of one of the last vestiges of the Jewish East End.



                    I am trying to find an old map showing Leman Street from Whitechapel High Street to see if it could have been her intentions to end up there. Renenber she would have had to walk about until it opened.


                    This may help, L. I believe it referring to 2 separate kitchens: one on Duke Street, Mitre Court and the other on 31 Leman. The one on Leman appears to have moved to Fashion Street by 1888. It is marked by a "B" on the map picture:

                    A Jewish soup kitchen was established in London in the late-eighteenth century, “a few years after” Levi Cohen, the warden of the Great Synagogue, established Meshebat Nephesh, a bread, meat, and coal society in 1779 (Hyamson 1908). Several of the charity’s meetings were held in the “Soup House, Mitre Court, Duke’s Place” (Wolf 1934); Duke’s Place was also the location of the Great Synagogue, so it is very probable that this soup house was the “Kosher soup establishment” that is recorded as operating in 1800 under the presidency of Benjamin Goldsmid (Stein 1959). The Jewish Year Book ( 1907) credits the Goldsmid brothers and Cohen and Joshua van Oven as founding a soup kitchen. The Goldsmid brothers were wealthy bankers active in both Jewish and non-Jewish charities; Joshua van Oven was the medical officer to the poor of the Great Synagogue, and all had been presidents of Meshabat Nephesh and involved in the van Oven scheme. This is also almost certainly the soup kitchen referred to as the “Jewish Nation Soup Committee” that was feeding 900 daily in early 1800 in a list of over 40 soup kitchens then operating in London (General Report 1800). This kitchen received support (along with many of London’s other soup kitchens) from the Lloyd’s Coffee House Committee, a group of wealthy, mostly Christian, philanthropists based in the City (the central district of London) (General Report 1800).
                    (Cohen 1943).

                    The next reference to a Jewish soup kitchen in London is in March 1854, when the Jewish Chronicle appealed for funds for the Soup Kitchen for the Jewish Poor to serve the newly arrived Polish Jews (Endelman 2002); it was situated at 31 Leman-Street, Whitechapel (Jewish Year Book 1907). In 1856, it moved to Black Lion Yard assisting about 5000 people of a total Jewish community of about 28,000 (Lipman 1959). Magnus (1909) refers to the soup kitchen premises being in Black Horse Yard. In the winter of 1866/7 the kitchen moved to Fashion Street. In 1902, the soup kitchen moved to purpose-built premises in nearby Butler Street (renamed Brune Street in 1937)


                    Carstairs, P. Int J Histor Archaeol (2017) 21: 901. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10761-017-0403-8
                    there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                    • #55
                      It's got David Cohen written all over it.

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                      • #56
                        Dr Brown would have removed Eddowes stomach to extract the contents. Hence the cut end.

                        The Jewish soup kitchen we seek was at the rear of 6 Fashion Street.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          Dr Brown would have removed Eddowes stomach to extract the contents. Hence the cut end.

                          The Jewish soup kitchen we seek was at the rear of 6 Fashion Street.
                          Kate was found to be sober. She gives her name as Mary Ann Kelly, and her address as 6 Fashion Street.

                          Appears she had food on her mind while leaving the gaol.

                          Hola Dave, been meaning to pm you
                          there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                            Sorry about the previous posts structure, but my point is this....we don't really know where Kate spent Friday night do we? We do know that the pawn ticket was dated Friday, so why would Kelly be confused about that? Surely a sober Saturday am is clearer for him than a possibly drunk Friday night..he said hed been drinking. So, was he drinking Friday night on the pawn money, or was it money from somewhere else?
                            How do you know that Kelly wasn't always drunk? If there was no hint of him being drunk at her inquest why did the coroner ask out of the blue if he's been drinking?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              I like the perspective you show in your posts Leanne, I do get the sense that you want to understand the mechanics of their lives. The streets, the characters. Dawn to dusk. I have tried myself to see the behaviors that we know Kate had in her last 24hrs, and they seem to me to suggest other than normal rhythms. Her turning the opposite direction of what we are led to believe was her partner, then the length of time it takes John to wonder where she is seem out of character with what we are told about their quiet lives, together each night. From the perspective I see in your posts, do you see this as well? Something is going on in the background those last 24 hours, and I believe it was something Kate was doing. Kelly tried to keep out of it until he realized what had happened, then he came forward.

                              This for me ties in extremely well with Kates attempting to get some hush money. We have the landlady's story, then the getting very drunk Saturday evening without any money of her own, then we have the left turn out of Bishopsgate, we have her meeting someone... coincidentally very near the location where a robbery was taking place that weekend..possibly that night, and we have no less than 7 policemen as the closest people to the victim at the time of the murder. Seems to me that Mitre Square had some interest that night. Here's my thinking....what if the people that bought her drinks are also the same people who rob the Post Office, what if she told the police about what her plan was in Bishopsgate and they deliberately left that out of the records, but they also arranged to have the area watched. She might know nothing about the robbery, but they might have had a tip. Just seems to me to flow along.
                              She could have met the person she suspected that night, MAYBE. But I don't think it was pre-arranged like an appointment. She simply went to a location he was likely to be at that time in the morning. I don't think she would have gotten seriously drunk if she had an appointment to keep.

                              John Kelly was a hopeless drunk. He had no idea what she did when she went out alone. He never sober enough to find out.
                              don't think he was ever sober enough to arrange a blackmail attempt.
                              I hate any type of conspiracy theory.

                              WHY WOULD THE POLICE NEED TO KEEP SILENT ABOUT A PLAN LIKE THAT?
                              WHY DIDN'T THEY KEEP SECRET ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY LET A DRUNK ARREST OUT AT 1:00 AM ?
                              WHY DIDN'T THEY SEND A COP TO TAIL HER ALL THE WAY THEREF THEY MADE A PLAN LIKE THAT?

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                              • #60
                                In 1857 a soup kitchen was founded in Brick Lane, Whitechapel and by January 1858 it was feeding an average of 1,000 people a week.

                                After being arrested she gave Bishopsgate the name and address of 'Mary Ann Kelly, No 6 Fashion Street."
                                what was there?

                                Last edited by Leanne; 07-16-2019, 10:11 AM.

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