Kate's Last Half Hour

[Sam Flynn]

Orange sellers set up their barrows in St. James Place-- beginning very early in the morning

Not at 1AM

[Leanne]

Not at 1AM

Sam, do you think the murderer of Elizabeth Stride in Berner Street, then Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square went home afterwards because it was too early to establish his alibi within the workforce? If he had to wait, hiding in Goulston Street for a time, why not pretend to be eager for work on Middlesex Street.

1:30/2am would have been difficult to establish an alibi anywhere.

[Robert St Devil]

If I remember correctly (highly unlikely), her autopsy showed that she had food in her stomach. A farinaceous powder or the likes. After sobering and being released from the drunk tank, she may have wandered off in search of a meal from a soup kitchen. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact date that it was opened but I believe that there may have been a Salvation Army on Houndsditch.

[APerno]

If I remember correctly (highly unlikely), her autopsy showed that she had food in her stomach. A farinaceous powder or the likes. After sobering and being released from the drunk tank, she may have wandered off in search of a meal from a soup kitchen. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact date that it was opened but I believe that there may have been a Salvation Army on Houndsditch.

Did soup kitchens run 24/7? They probably needed to. -- It was after midnight when she was released.

I realize all these girls were very poor, but Kate had only been in town a few days since picking hops up north and had pawned (someone's) boots, I have always thought she must have a little money on her. Can't see her drinking away a month's labor in one night, so maybe she was able to buy something to eat. But that too necessitates something being open after 1:00 in the morning.

I have no clue how active 'London after midnight' was.

P.S. Or maybe someone bought her something to eat.

[Leanne]

I wonder why John thought that was Saturday morning? And in his account, why would Kate be released that early in the morning if she had chores to do as part of her bed proviso. Doesn't it seem like he believed they had tea Saturday morning with the pawn money? Why would these statements clash with the dated pawn ticket?

John was always drunk!

[Leanne]

This site says that she spent Friday night at a lodging house and gives 'Evans and Rumbelow pp 114-115' as the source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Eddowes

[Wickerman]

Did soup kitchens run 24/7? They probably needed to. -- It was after midnight when she was released.

I realize all these girls were very poor, but Kate had only been in town a few days since picking hops up north and had pawned (someone's) boots, I have always thought she must have a little money on her. Can't see her drinking away a month's labor in one night, so maybe she was able to buy something to eat. But that too necessitates something being open after 1:00 in the morning.

I have no clue how active 'London after midnight' was.

P.S. Or maybe someone bought her something to eat.

There were hot food shops open through the night in the back streets of the East End. Bring your own plate to take away, or sit in to eat.
The main streets like Whitechapel High street were lined with hot food carts, coffee, baked potatoes & quick snacks, but it doesn't appear Kate got that far.

[Cogidubnus]

I realize all these girls were very poor, but Kate had only been in town a few days since picking hops up north and had pawned (someone's) boots, I have always thought she must have a little money on her. Can't see her drinking away a month's labor in one night, so maybe she was able to buy something to eat. But that too necessitates something being open after 1:00 in the morning.

The hop-picking was in Kent which is actually South East of the capital. It was generally done on a piecework basis, with the pickers being paid so much a bushel...but the reason quoted for them returning when they did was that it'd been a poor season...so probably the earnings didn't amount to very much...

Dave

[Wickerman]

If I remember correctly (highly unlikely), her autopsy showed that she had food in her stomach. A farinaceous powder or the likes. After sobering and being released from the drunk tank, she may have wandered off in search of a meal from a soup kitchen. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact date that it was opened but I believe that there may have been a Salvation Army on Houndsditch.

Yes, farinacious means made of flour, cereal or meal. So possibly pastry, pies, bread? It was partly digested.

[Joshua Rogan]

If I remember correctly (highly unlikely), her autopsy showed that she had food in her stomach. A farinaceous powder or the likes. After sobering and being released from the drunk tank, she may have wandered off in search of a meal from a soup kitchen. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact date that it was opened but I believe that there may have been a Salvation Army on Houndsditch.

I do think your memory has let you down on this occasion Robert (unless mine has let me down). I don't recall the contents of Kate's stomach being described, except that it didn't show any sign of narcotics. You may be thinking of Phillips' description of Stride's stomach contents;

"Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles."


Dr Browne said of Eddowes;

"Examination showed that there was very little in the stomach in the way of food or fluid."

[Sam Flynn]

I don't recall the contents of Kate's stomach being described, except that it didn't show any sign of narcotics. You may be thinking of Phillips' description of Stride's stomach contents;

"Partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles."

Dr Browne said of Eddowes;

"Examination showed that there was very little in the stomach in the way of food or fluid."

You're right about Stride (I think Dr Blackwell noted some farinaceous food as well), but Eddowes had consumed farinaceous food also. The full quote from Dr Brown is: "I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped".

[seanr]

The hop-picking was in Kent which is actually South East of the capital. It was generally done on a piecework basis, with the pickers being paid so much a bushel...but the reason quoted for them returning when they did was that it'd been a poor season...so probably the earnings didn't amount to very much...

Dave

Indeed, for if they had earned a decent sum whilst hop picking, why would they pawn the boots?

[Joshua Rogan]

You're right about Stride (I think Dr Blackwell noted some farinaceous food as well), but Eddowes had consumed farinaceous food also. The full quote from Dr Brown is: "I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped".

Thanks Sam, and apologies to Robert - nothing wrong with your memory after all!

[Leanne]

There were hot food shops open through the night in the back streets of the East End. Bring your own plate to take away, or sit in to eat.
The main streets like Whitechapel High street were lined with hot food carts, coffee, baked potatoes & quick snacks, but it doesn't appear Kate got that far.

But she had no money and no plate. There was a soup kitchen for poor Jews on Brune Street I am trying to locate Brune Street on a map, find out whether you have to be a Jew, what times it opened.

[Leanne]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=PCFC3PAI&id=4746C46EC82E37834DD7580B97BE4B9BD5B57F4B&thid=OIP.PCFC3PAI5xLnOoBQwRnC1gHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2f564x%2f77%2fa8%2f50%2f77a8506517b0bc3c95fb269f3073ee0c.jpg&exph=423&expw=564&q=victorian+photos+jewish+east+end+london&simid=607993473431569532&selectedIndex=57&qpvt=victorian+photos+jewish+east+end+london&ajaxhist=0