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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • #61
    Sorry, I just saw that someone else mentioned this.

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    • #62
      I don't think they would wait until releasing her to ask her name and address.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Leanne View Post
        In 1857 a soup kitchen was founded in Brick Lane, Whitechapel and by January 1858 it was feeding an average of 1,000 people a week.

        After being arrested she gave Bishopsgate the name and address of 'Mary Ann Kelly, No 6 Fashion Street."
        what was there?

        As DJA pointed out, the Jewish soup kitchen was behind no.6, but also behind no.5. The archway leading to the kitchen seems to be marked no.4

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Leanne View Post

          She could have met the person she suspected that night, MAYBE. But I don't think it was pre-arranged like an appointment. She simply went to a location he was likely to be at that time in the morning. I don't think she would have gotten seriously drunk if she had an appointment to keep.

          John Kelly was a hopeless drunk. He had no idea what she did when she went out alone. He never sober enough to find out.
          don't think he was ever sober enough to arrange a blackmail attempt.
          I hate any type of conspiracy theory.

          1.WHY WOULD THE POLICE NEED TO KEEP SILENT ABOUT A PLAN LIKE THAT?
          2.WHY DIDN'T THEY KEEP SECRET ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY LET A DRUNK ARREST OUT AT 1:00 AM ?
          3.WHY DIDN'T THEY SEND A COP TO TAIL HER ALL THE WAY THEREF THEY MADE A PLAN LIKE THAT?
          1. Im not sure, perhaps this was not sanctioned.
          2. In the City as per the law at the time, D & D's were released when they seemed to be sober enough. Not so in the Greater Met.
          3. Maybe they did, or maybe they thought watching the square would be better. Check the alleys and laneways around the area...3 detectives, have the beat cops be on their toes when in or near the square...2 constables. They have a cop who lives in the square, off duty though Id imagine, and one ex copper in the warehouse. Lots of potential eyes. There was a robbery ongoing that weekend in the Post Office, seems reckless of those burglars to have started committing such a crime when all the people in the area are police. The city was sparsely populated, there wasn't the same night foot traffic that the East End had.

          I don't know that Kate was lured there necessarily, I think its possible the man she was to meet was also robbing a post office that weekend. That's where he was going to be, so she had to go there. If my guess is correct then the man she is meeting is likely a career criminal, obviously violent. Im always surprised that there is not many deemed "Suspect" worthy who were just street tough brutes. Look at the men that attacked Emma, a small sample of the brutality around. There is a sort of Clockwork Orange background to these cases.
          Michael Richards

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

            As DJA pointed out, the Jewish soup kitchen was behind no.6, but also behind no.5. The archway leading to the kitchen seems to be marked no.4

            Click image for larger version  Name:	_20190716_112725.JPG Views:	0 Size:	140.0 KB ID:	716514
            The Soup Kitchen for the Jewish Poor was open three days a week, from mid to late-December until early April, around the time of Passover, at 5:30 pm, except on Fridays when it was open from 11 am to 2 pm to enable closing before the start of the Sabbath which in winter would have been 4 pm. In the 1890s it often opened five nights each week.
            Carstairs, P. Int J Histor Archaeol (2017) 21: 901. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10761-017-0403-8

            The kitchen wouldn't appear to be open or in operation on September 30th. With it being located towards the back of the lot, what was at 6 Fashion St?
            Last edited by Robert St Devil; 07-16-2019, 12:42 PM.
            there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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            • #66
              There would have been a few chandlers' shops and eateries open at around 1AM - we know that there was one on Thrawl Street open at that time because Elizabeth Mahoney (a witness at the Tabram inquest) went there to buy fish and chips for her and her husband. We also know that Jack McCarthy's shop in Dorset Street was open at a fairly late hour. So, Eddowes is likely to have had plenty of options without heading immediately "home", assuming she had the money to buy a meal for herself. It's also possible that she was given something to eat by Hutt or Byfield at the police station, even if this went unremarked upon.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                1. Im not sure, perhaps this was not sanctioned.
                2. In the City as per the law at the time, D & D's were released when they seemed to be sober enough. Not so in the Greater Met.
                3. Maybe they did, or maybe they thought watching the square would be better.
                They thought that sending a drunk female to Mitre Square was better? This theory gets sillier as you expose it!

                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                C
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                heck the alleys and laneways around the area...3 detectives, have the beat cops be on their toes when in or near the square...2 constables. They have a cop who lives in the square, off duty though Id imagine, and one ex copper in the warehouse. Lots of potential eyes.
                WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST SEND THE COPS? Did they have to have another reason in case somebody asked?
                Why didn't they send policemen in plain clothes?

                [QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n716515]
                There was a robbery ongoing that weekend in the Post Office, seems reckless of those burglars to have started committing such a crime when all the people in the area are police. The city was sparsely populated, there wasn't the same night foot traffic that the East End had.

                I don't know that Kate was lured there necessarily, I think its possible the man she was to meet was also robbing a post office that weekend. [QUOTE]
                JACK THE ROBBER

                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                to be, so she had to go there. If my guess is correct then the man she is meeting is likely a career criminal, obviously violent. Im always surprised that there is not many deemed "Suspect" worthy who were just street tough brutes. Look at the men that attacked Emma, a small sample of the brutality around. There is a sort of Clockwork Orange background to these cases.
                which banks were robbed when the other victims were killed?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                  I don't think they would wait until releasing her to ask her name and address.
                  If she gave that name and address when she was arrested I'd say it was because she no longer lived with John Kelly and it was where she intended to go once she was released.

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                  • #69
                    But she met Jack on the way, who may not have been the person she suspected.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Leanne View Post

                      If she gave that name and address when she was arrested I'd say it was because she no longer lived with John Kelly and it was where she intended to go once she was released.
                      how do you mean "no longer lived"? As in,for the night?

                      Judging by her pawn ticket, she was in the habit of giving false information. Her comment when leaving Bishopsgate was regarding her man (presumably John Kelly) getting after her; so, she must have still been bound to him in some fashion.
                      there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        There would have been a few chandlers' shops and eateries open at around 1AM - we know that there was one on Thrawl Street open at that time because Elizabeth Mahoney (a witness at the Tabram inquest) went there to buy fish and chips for her and her husband. We also know that Jack McCarthy's shop in Dorset Street was open at a fairly late hour. So, Eddowes is likely to have had plenty of options without heading immediately "home", assuming she had the money to buy a meal for herself. It's also possible that she was given something to eat by Hutt or Byfield at the police station, even if this went unremarked upon.
                        That last line is a possibility. Unlike Stride, there was no detectable full-course meal in her stomach, so it could have been nothing more than a cracker. You are correct about the cut being from the autopsy removal.
                        With feces in her colon and bile in her bladder, I don't believe that she used any facilities after leaving the gaol.

                        considering that she left Kelly on Houndsditch, any chance that she returned to search for him there? Her last recorded comments refer to him.
                        there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                          1. They thought that sending a drunk female to Mitre Square was better? This theory gets sillier as you expose it!

                          [LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]
                          2. WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST SEND THE COPS? Did they have to have another reason in case somebody asked?
                          Why didn't they send policemen in plain clothes?
                          3.[LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana] which banks were robbed when the other victims were killed?
                          Since you don't seem to see any value in cordiality and courtesy when wording your posts, Ill dispense with mine as well.

                          1. Are you learning impaired? I said the City released the prisoners when they were sober enough to take care of themselves. When attempting to counter a point remembering the parameters is important.
                          2. Since the three detectives were plainclothes, and the beat cops were uniformed and on duty, seems like they could have had both.
                          3. Exactly what other victims have been proven in any sense to have links with Kate Eddowes murder? Your point isn't grounded in any reality, its the same unproven rhetoric. In case my question in #1 is accurate, THAT MEANS THERE IS NO PROOF JtR KILLED KATE...or anyone else. Just because someone made up a name on a letter doesn't make this a legitimate perp, and the Canonical Group is pure speculation.

                          Michael Richards

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                          • #73
                            Kate Eddowes used 2 aliases in her last 24 hours, her mate lied about when they pawned the boots and apparently how close they were, they spend Friday night apart.. despite having the pawn money, and she ends up drunk without having any money Saturday evening. She heads out in the opposite direction of where John would be after leaving Bishopsgate, and Kelly doesn't even ask after her until Tuesday even though he knew she was in a city jail and due to be released whenever she sobered up. She told an ex-landlady when she returned from hopping that she thought she knew who the killer was and planned on claiming the reward.

                            Ive used these facts when attempting to reconstruct what was going on that last 24 hours, and since she made no attempt to go to the police about her knowledge of someone she thought was the killer at large, she may have tried to get money from that person first. The fact that the Post Office robbery was going on that same weekend puts criminals in that area at that time. None of what Ive suggested is contrary to those facts, all Ive done is try to knit a story from them. And since Kate is the ONLY victim that the killer tried to cut the nose from, something that was done historically to snitches, that wound also fits my premise.

                            I give these ideas for discussion, I don't have a full story in mind or anyone for the killer, so if youd like to discuss the ideas, lets do so. If you think you already have the answers...like so many Leanne types...then discuss other things. Like how Jack the Ripper likely killed every female victim in London that year. Something much more probable.

                            Michael Richards

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                              As DJA pointed out, the Jewish soup kitchen was behind no.6, but also behind no.5. The archway leading to the kitchen seems to be marked no.4

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	_20190716_112725.JPG Views:	0 Size:	140.0 KB ID:	716514
                              At the rear,you will notice the number "30". That possibly denoted the rear of 30 Flower and Dean Street.
                              I am aware that might not be correct. Perhaps someone will check.

                              Who resided at 32 ?

                              Reminiscent of Emilly Birrell's address ..... it's out the back Jack
                              Last edited by DJA; 07-16-2019, 07:37 PM.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                                since Kate is the ONLY victim that the killer tried to cut the nose from, something that was done historically to snitches
                                The ONLY victim? Who was Mary Kelly blackmailing, then?
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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