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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • Originally posted by miss marple View Post
    I just want to make one small point which seems fairly obvious to me, that Kate's rags were sanitary rags, there was even mention of blood.If she was in pre menopause her periods could get erratic and bloody. Sorry guys. I don't think she was planning to sell her apron. although she may have been planning to make some hankies with the linen.if she had been menstruating, that would have been a good reason not to spend the night with Kelly.

    Miss Marple
    Although it's a fair suggestion, I don't think we should conclude that it's the definite purpose of the rags. She obviously loved sewing. If her periods were heavy she'd need more than rags and would be more likely to want to go home.



    Last edited by Leanne; 08-15-2019, 09:54 PM.

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    • Originally posted by miss marple View Post
      'Poor old Joe' I was referring to Joe Barnett, as Leanne has used a lot of this thread attacking him and trying to implicate him with spurious claims. Why Michael thought 'Joe' meant Kelly is odd.

      Miss Marple
      Yes, your right, I saw Joe but read John. The type of relationship John and Kate had, as portrayed by witnesses and by John himself, leads one to believe they spent nearly every night together. Which means Kate was not soliciting at night for the most part. That rules that probability out as to why she is in Mitre Square at 1:30am. It also puts his inaction toward her absence in focus. IF they were as "partners", why did he not seek out Kate when the absolute latest she would have been released is Sunday morning. He gives no indication he had any concerns for her even as late as Tuesday morning, and the only reason he acts then is, as he says, because after reading the paper he realized the woman murdered in Mitre Square was probably Kate. Had he not read that paper....when would he have acted? How long could he have gone not knowing where Kate was during the day or night?

      I think the reason he didn't ask about her, seek her out, ask friends if they had seen her, check with where he knew she was in jail Saturday night, is because he already knew she was dead Tuesday before reading any paper. That just confirmed it I believe.

      Hardly the actions of someone in a relationship with someone, even a "partnership". It demonstrates as much concern about Kates welfare as George Hutchinsons 4 day late witness report does about his interest in helping find Marys killer.
      Michael Richards

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      • Hi Michael,
        I don't find anything odd in Kelly's behaviour, they had known each other for years and were used to each other's ways. So Friday they pawned the boots and bought tea, maybe sixpence worth, a bit of sugar, saving fourpence for Cooneys and tuppence for the casual ward. I think Kate thought it was worth having an extra drink, instead of paying an extra tuppence to go to Cooney's so she pops off to casual ward letting Kelly stay at Cooney's
        They meet up at eight next morning to have breakfast at Cooneys with the tea and sugar they had bought. Kate says she is off to see her daughter to get some money. They plan to meet up later at Cooney's about 8pm. She does not show but Kelly is told she is at Bishopsgate police station being held for drunk and disorderly,so he knows she is safe for the night, he does not have to worry about her. Visiting the police station will achieve nothing,also having pawned his boots, we don't know the state of his feet or footwear. There is enough trust between them for him to know she will turn up. In the morning why would he think she had been murdered? she was in a police cell for the night, so he thinks.

        Miss Marple

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        • Originally posted by miss marple View Post
          Hi Michael,
          I don't find anything odd in Kelly's behaviour, they had known each other for years and were used to each other's ways. So Friday they pawned the boots and bought tea, maybe sixpence worth, a bit of sugar, saving fourpence for Cooneys and tuppence for the casual ward. I think Kate thought it was worth having an extra drink, instead of paying an extra tuppence to go to Cooney's so she pops off to casual ward letting Kelly stay at Cooney's
          They meet up at eight next morning to have breakfast at Cooneys with the tea and sugar they had bought. Kate says she is off to see her daughter to get some money. They plan to meet up later at Cooney's about 8pm. She does not show but Kelly is told she is at Bishopsgate police station being held for drunk and disorderly,so he knows she is safe for the night, he does not have to worry about her. Visiting the police station will achieve nothing,also having pawned his boots, we don't know the state of his feet or footwear. There is enough trust between them for him to know she will turn up. In the morning why would he think she had been murdered? she was in a police cell for the night, so he thinks.

          Miss Marple
          That's a very benign storyline Miss M, and who knows, it might be the way it went. However I see a problem or 2 there....where does Kate get drinking money in the early evening...and I don't imagine these lasses got drunk on one pint of watered down beer. The claim the boots were pawned Saturday morning for me is a red flag...surely at the very least one could recall whether it was day or night when something happened, within the previous week. There is no definitive record of Kate having stayed at the casual ward, and in the casual ward one must work off their bed the next morning, making it virtually impossible for Kate to have seen John early that morning by 8. If he knew she was in Bishopsgate, he would know that was City jurisdiction...would he know that prisoners are released throughout the evening when they are able to be in charge of themselves again? Unlike the rules the Met was following at that time.

          I think the evidence and the sketchy explanations in places suggest to me that Kate was off doing something on her own, Kelly would have known what she was doing, and he sat tight waiting for her to come back after. Someone bought Kate drinks that evening. Why, and who. Did Kate actually stay at a casual ward Friday night? The footwear issue...he says he went to market Saturday afternoon...are we to assume that was done barefooted? If he went to market, why didn't he have the Birrell pawn ticket to maybe sell to someone. Most nights they slept together as the story goes...is it odd that on her last 2 nights on earth they didn't? She left John on Saturday, he discovers Tuesday morning via the papers that a woman killed Saturday night is likely Kate. He doesn't wonder where Kate is for Sun and Monday night?
          Michael Richards

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          • Originally posted by miss marple View Post
            Hi Michael,
            I don't find anything odd in Kelly's behaviour, they had known each other for years and were used to each other's ways. So Friday they pawned the boots and bought tea, maybe sixpence worth, a bit of sugar, saving fourpence for Cooneys and tuppence for the casual ward. I think Kate thought it was worth having an extra drink, instead of paying an extra tuppence to go to Cooney's so she pops off to casual ward letting Kelly stay at Cooney's
            I don't see anything sinister about in Kelly's behavior either.
            Read his inquest testimony carefully. They spent ALL of the boot money on drink and food and John earned a little money at a job which they split for lodgings.

            At least in knowing she was locked up at a police station he would know that she was safe.
            Last edited by Leanne; 08-18-2019, 12:46 PM.

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            • Coroner] Where did you sleep? - On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday we were down at the hop-picking, and came back to London on Thursday. We had been unfortunate at the hop-picking, and had no money. On Thursday night we both slept in the casual ward. ON THE FRIDAY I EARNED 6d AT A JOB, and I said, "Here, Kate, you take 4d and go to the lodging-house and I will go to Mile-end," but she said, "No, you go and have a bed and I will go to the casual ward," and she went. I saw her again on Saturday morning early.
              ……………............................................. ….
              .............................................
              ...............
              I know there was some tea and sugar found on her body. She bought that out of some boots we pawned at Jones's for 2s 6d. I think it was on Saturday morning that we pawned the boots. She was sober when she left me. We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. ALL OF IT WAS SPENT IN DRINK AND FOOD.


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              • Why aren't you suspicious about Joe Barnet gambling with his friends (with no money), while Mary Jane Kelly was lacking rent money?

                Why are you satisfied with him telling the police that he went to bed at midnight to wait until morning to give her his winnings.

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                • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                  I don't see anything sinister about in Kelly's behavior either.
                  Read his inquest testimony carefully. They spent ALL of the boot money on drink and food and John earned a little money at a job which they split for lodgings.

                  At least in knowing she was locked up at a police station he would know that she was safe.
                  I think Michael is suspicious because Kelly didn't mention Kate being locked up at all in his Star interview, instead apparently believing she was staying with her daughter.

                  Star, 3rd Oct;

                  "She told me she had made up her mind to go to her daughter's in Bermondsey. I begged her to be back early, for we had been talking about the Whitechapel murders, and I said I did not want to have that knife get at her. "Don't you fear for me," said she, "I'll take care of myself, and I shan't fall into his hands." With that she went out. I went with her to the street corner below, and I never laid eyes on her again till I saw her down at the mortuary last night. I was out in the market all day, but did no good. When she did not come home at night I didn't worry, for I thought her daughter might have asked her to stay over Sunday with her. So on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter's. Yesterday morning I began to be worried a bit, but I did not guess the truth until after I had come back from another bad day in the market."
                  Last edited by Joshua Rogan; 08-18-2019, 01:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                    I think Michael is suspicious because Kelly didn't mention Kate being locked up at all in his Star interview, instead apparently believing she was staying with her daughter.

                    Star, 3rd Oct;

                    "She told me she had made up her mind to go to her daughter's in Bermondsey. I begged her to be back early, for we had been talking about the Whitechapel murders, and I said I did not want to have that knife get at her. "Don't you fear for me," said she, "I'll take care of myself, and I shan't fall into his hands." With that she went out. I went with her to the street corner below, and I never laid eyes on her again till I saw her down at the mortuary last night. I was out in the market all day, but did no good. When she did not come home at night I didn't worry, for I thought her daughter might have asked her to stay over Sunday with her. So on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter's. Yesterday morning I began to be worried a bit, but I did not guess the truth until after I had come back from another bad day in the market."
                    He obviously felt ashamed that his 'wife' was selling herself for a bed, food and pocket money on occasions and didn't want it known that he allowed it.....which is normal behavior.

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                    • Did Joseph Barnett worry so much about Mary Jane's not having money that he went back to her as soon as he won some?
                      Or did he just calmly go to bed at 12?
                      Last edited by Leanne; 08-18-2019, 09:58 PM.

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                      • Rather than use 12 rags for her heavy periods, Kate could have used her whole apron!

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                        • I've tried to edit my last few single sentence posts and make them shorter by taking out the blank space, but that task was impossible.

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                          • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                            He obviously felt ashamed that his 'wife' was selling herself for a bed, food and pocket money on occasions and didn't want it known that he allowed it.....which is normal behavior.
                            That would be my interpretation* too, but I can see why some find it suspicious.

                            *that, and the fact that if he (or the lodging house) admitted that Kate brought back money then he could be accused of living off immoral earnings and so open to prosecution. Barnett too was very careful to say that Mary Jane never resorted to prostitution while she lived with him.

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                            • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                              Did Joseph Barnett worry so much about Mary Jane's not having money that he went back to her as soon as he won some?
                              Or did he just calmly go to bed at 12?
                              Is there any evidence that Joe wa playing cards for money, or that he won any? I only recall that he said he played whist before going to bed, but would be interested in any further details.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                                I think Michael is suspicious because Kelly didn't mention Kate being locked up at all in his Star interview, instead apparently believing she was staying with her daughter.

                                Star, 3rd Oct;

                                "She told me she had made up her mind to go to her daughter's in Bermondsey. I begged her to be back early, for we had been talking about the Whitechapel murders, and I said I did not want to have that knife get at her. "Don't you fear for me," said she, "I'll take care of myself, and I shan't fall into his hands." With that she went out. I went with her to the street corner below, and I never laid eyes on her again till I saw her down at the mortuary last night. I was out in the market all day, but did no good. When she did not come home at night I didn't worry, for I thought her daughter might have asked her to stay over Sunday with her. So on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter's. Yesterday morning I began to be worried a bit, but I did not guess the truth until after I had come back from another bad day in the market."
                                Thanks for that Josh, and yes, I am suspicious because we know for a fact that he knew she was in jail as early as late Saturday eve. As for Kate selling herself, once again Ill remind people that there is no evidence that Kate was even occasionally "selling herself" within the witness statements, from the people closest to her on a regular basis. John himself says they lived "as man and wife". Whether Kate ever solicited, or Liz, or Mary, isn't the point, whether they likely met their killer in that manner is. Jack the Ripper was feigning being picked up by strangers who were selling themselves alone on the streets in the middle of the night. The fact that any of these women were seen with a man that same evening isn't relevant unless it can be established a services transaction was involved. I don't know if they checked Liz for any evidence of sexual molestation, considering her final pose it would seem highly unlikely anyway. Its within the realm of possibilities that Liz was soliciting, and so was Kate, in which case they met their killer as a stranger posing as a client. However in Marys case its almost certain she knew her killer fairly well.

                                Back to the original point, Kellys statements do not for me ring truthful, and we can see evidence of "mistakes", some basic ones, in his stories. He knew Kate was in trouble, and he did nothing. Why? If he thought she was in Police trouble he would go by the station and try to sort out the mess for the woman he partnered with. Was he fearful of poking into what happened? Did he just sit back and let Kate deal with dangerous criminals to achieve some objective she, or they, had?

                                Its not logical that Kate would just find herself outside Mitre Square after being released and deciding to trawl for customers. Why would she do that in the City..many more opportunities on the streets nearby. She went there on purpose, just like her apron section was left in the Model Homes entranceway after her murder.
                                Michael Richards

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