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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • If you believe a woman wearing similar clothes was seen and it wasn't Jack & Kate but another couple, do you believe Jack and Kate were already in the square, or was Kate still ssssssssssssslllllllllllowly walking from Bishopsgate station?
    What i simply saying is this , Kate and her killer could have met on the way to Mitre Square after she left the lock up ,they could just as easily entered Mitre Square via Mitre street entrance at 1.33am just after P.C Watkins had finished his rounds . That leaves a full 11 minutes to do the deed and escape before the body was discovered. Now i dont see why this scenario is any less believable Than Lawendes probable sighting of who he thought was the dead women at church st passage. Do you ?

    Now just to clarify, its possible that Lawende was correct , ''BUT'' as no one actually saw Kate and her killer enter church st passage into the square [ not even Lawende , if you read his statement he clearly says he ''did not look back to see where the couple went'' ]therefor the above alternative could well have been playing out at the same time. And the Lawende couple could have wandered off in another direction .

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    • Hi,
      We know there was at least a man and a woman in the area [ maybe besides Eddowes] ''Nightwatchman , have you see a man and woman pass this way''
      Regards Richard.

      Comment


      • P.C. Watkins inquest testimony is very interesting:

        Edward Watkin," No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street TO ST. JAMES PLACE, ROUND THE PLACE, THEN INTO DUKE-STREET, here I started from. (ST. JAMES PLACE IS WHERE THE ORANGE MARKET WAS), That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until ONE O'CLOCK ON SUNDAY MORNING. " BUT SHE WAS KILLED AFTER 1:30

        HE DISCOVERED THE BODY AT 1:44.

        .........."
        I ran across to Kearley and Long's warehouse. THE DOOR WAS AJAR, and I pushed it open, and called on the watchman Morris, who was inside. (WOULD A GOOD WATCHMAN LEAVED AN UNLOCKED DOOR AJAR?) He came out. I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. Holland was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and also Dr. Brown, surgeon to the police force.
        [Coroner] When you first saw the body did you hear any footsteps as if anybody were running away? - No. The door of the warehouse to which I went was ajar, because the watchman was working about. It was no unusual thing for the door to be ajar at that hour of the morning. (AND JACK THE ORANGE MAN KNEW IT)

        By Mr. Crawford: I was continually patrolling my beat from ten o'clock up to half-past one. (BUT EARLIER HE SAID HIS BEAT FINISHED AT 1:00???)I noticed nothing unusual up till 1.44, when I saw the body.
        By the Coroner: I did not sound an alarm. We do not carry whistles.
        By a Juror: My beat is not a double but a single beat. No other policeman comes into Mitre-street.

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        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

          Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. Plus, of course, surely she'd have known that the chances of getting a room/bed in a lodging house at that time of the morning would have been minimal. Especially if she had no money.
          Its because she had no money Sam that I believe she would have sought out Kelly, had she been intent on linking up with him that night, something that the witness accounts of their relationship would support. It would have been a good place to start looking anyway. And his indifference to her stay in jail is also interesting in that context. He knew she was in jail that night.
          Michael Richards

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          • The original court record has:
            "I had been continuously patrolling that beat from 10 in the evening until 1.o'clock nothing excited my attention...." then a correction "1.30" was written above the "1.o'clock".
            As a good number of newspapers provided the "1.o'clock" it does appear that is what Watkins had said, but not all newspapers caught the correction.
            Regards, Jon S.

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            • Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
              Hi,
              We know there was at least a man and a woman in the area [ maybe besides Eddowes] ''Nightwatchman , have you see a man and woman pass this way''
              Regards Richard.
              About 01:30
              James Blenkinsop, nightwatchman overseeing roadworks in ST. JAMES PLACE, claimed a respectably dressed man approached him, asking, “Have you seen a man and woman go through here?” Blenkinsop said he had seen some people pass, BUT HE HAD NOT PAID ATTENTION TO THEM.

              Jack waiting for the orange market to start, checking how observant he was?

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              • I suppose its worth throwing this into the mix when considering Lawende, the contemporary reports suggest there was some thought by the investigators that she was dropped where she was found, not killed there. Perhaps the minimal blood on the front of her jacket, don't know. But that would mean that they were considering that Lawende did not see the victim outside the square.
                Michael Richards

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                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                  Its because she had no money Sam that I believe she would have sought out Kelly
                  I don't see why she would have been in a hurry to find him and wake him up to tell him that she'd been drinking heavily, especially if she'd got her hands on some money only to pee it away. Even if she'd decided to seek him out, she needn't have done it right away, preferring instead to clear her head and collect her thoughts/excuses whilst taking a walk. There are all manner of boring reasons to account for what she did that night, without reaching for the conspiracy/blackmail button.

                  And his indifference to her stay in jail is also interesting in that context. He knew she was in jail that night.
                  And, as he seems to have been untroubled by her absence, he presumably had no reason to believe that she would be, or had been, released.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    I don't see why she would have been in a hurry to find him and wake him up to tell him that she'd been drinking heavily, especially if she'd got her hands on some money only to pee it away. Even if she'd decided to seek him out, she needn't have done it right away, preferring instead to clear her head and collect her thoughts/excuses whilst taking a walk. There are all manner of boring reasons to account for what she did that night, without reaching for the conspiracy/blackmail button.



                    And, as he seems to have been untroubled by her absence, he presumably had no reason to believe that she would be, or had been, released.
                    Indeed Sam
                    and she was worried about a "hiding" from him too. she was probably hoping to turn a quick trick to at least have some money when she returned to him.

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                    • Are you people forgetting we have no evidence at all that Kate was performing any street tricks at this time? In fact we have witness statements that say her and John lived relatively quietly and were together almost every night. Also she had been singing in her cell prior to her release, and was coherent when released, so why would she need to clear her head further? She had been drying out for 4 hours.

                      Willingness to accept an equally unproven idea doesn't negate the comparative samples potential viability.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                        Also she had been singing in her cell prior to her release, and was coherent when released, so why would she need to clear her head further?
                        I didn't stipulate that she was clearing her head of alcohol, although that's still possible even if she was in a fit state to leave the cells.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                          Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. Plus, of course, surely she'd have known that the chances of getting a room/bed in a lodging house at that time of the morning would have been minimal. Especially if she had no money.
                          Here's my thoughts: Kate had a bed. At Bishopsgate. And if she continues to "play drunk", maybe she keeps a bed for the night. However she requested to be released, so possibly lodging wasn't her priority around 1 that morning. Also, she's just slept, so possibly a bed isn't her priority around 1 that morning. The last the story has left off, she parted ways with Kelly on Houndsditch, which (I think) is in the direction in which she walks away from Bishopsgate, so could she have been going to the last known place to look for him, not knowing that he is lodging at Cooney's? It might help if we knew where they parted ways on Houndsditch.

                          aside: i saw mention of her apron being an item for pawn in recent posts. It made me consider the worth of her valuables in regards to pawning, which brought me to the list of items found on her person. Which, made me consider her red silk neckerchief. Any chance that this red neckerchief is the same one that Lawende witnessed being worn by our Duke's Passage suspect?
                          there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                          • Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                            Hi,
                            We know there was at least a man and a woman in the area [ maybe besides Eddowes] ''Nightwatchman , have you see a man and woman pass this way''
                            Regards Richard.
                            Richard, do you know where we can find the original report on what Blenkinsop saw? Was it in a newspaper report?
                            One reference modern reference I found said it was at 1:30, five minutes before Lawende and co left the nightclub. I rekon it may have been Jack testing how observant he was. The man was respectfully dressed, he wasn't wearing a police uniform.

                            Comment


                            • Many people think it was a CID man because he was respectfully dressed, but an undercover cop would not be respectfully dressed at 1:30 am in the morning in the area. And an undercover cop would not lose sight of a couple he was tailing and resort to asking a nightwatchman. …..What if the nightwatchman was the Ripper?

                              Who would be respectfully dressed?...…….someone trying to disguise himself!

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                              • …….someone who kept a secret wardrobe hidden at a place he often worked at.....

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