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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Yes, your right, I saw Joe but read John. The type of relationship John and Kate had, as portrayed by witnesses and by John himself, leads one to believe they spent nearly every night together. Which means Kate was not soliciting at night for the most part. That rules that probability out as to why she is in Mitre Square at 1:30am. It also puts his inaction toward her absence in focus. IF they were as "partners", why did he not seek out Kate when the absolute latest she would have been released is Sunday morning. He gives no indication he had any concerns for her even as late as Tuesday morning, and the only reason he acts then is, as he says, because after reading the paper he realized the woman murdered in Mitre Square was probably Kate. Had he not read that paper....when would he have acted? How long could he have gone not knowing where Kate was during the day or night?

    I think the reason he didn't ask about her, seek her out, ask friends if they had seen her, check with where he knew she was in jail Saturday night, is because he already knew she was dead Tuesday before reading any paper. That just confirmed it I believe.
    If you think he killed her, why do you suppose he didn't lie about his concern in his testimony?
    If he wanted the police to think that she was a victim of Jack The Ripper, why didn't he say that she sometimes sold favors?



    Last edited by Leanne; 08-20-2019, 02:12 PM.

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    • If it is true that all the boot money was spent on food and drink, them it does appear Kate was bought drinks, later possibly in return for favours. I think we have see the situation of Kelly and Kate from the perspective of the time. Yes they were a couple, based on convenience and mutual support. For people at the bottom of the heap with no income, particularly for a woman, to team up with a man to share costs would make life a little easier ,but as both were destitute most of the time, the reality was that Kate may have done some extra sexual favours just to keep body and soul together, as did many poverty stricken women, but they would not have seen themselves as prostitutes. I am sure Kelly would have been aware of this, but as a matter of respect for Kate not to mention it, but consider it none of his business.
      So if she disappeared for a while, he knew she always came back, he trusted her, they were dependant on each other, which could be why he had such a laissez faire attitude to her disappearing. In terms of the boots the importance was not the day they were sold but what they bought. I think Kelly would have prioritised the day they had some money. He does seem to be lacking in imagination and urgency but he was not a well man.

      Miss Marple
      Last edited by miss marple; 08-20-2019, 04:40 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
        If you think he killed her, why do you suppose he didn't lie about his concern in his testimony?
        If he wanted the police to think that she was a victim of Jack The Ripper, why didn't he say that she sometimes sold favors?
        Im often puzzled by your posts, where did you ever get the idea that I though John killed her, or that he wanted the Police to think it was the Ripper. Read my posts...Ive never said anything like that here or anywhere. I said that Johns mistakes in his statements lead one to question whether he was being truthfull...so you don't screw this up to, one example is when he says he knew Kate was in jail. Another is when the boots were pawned. Mistakes or lies?
        Michael Richards

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        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

          Im often puzzled by your posts, where did you ever get the idea that I though John killed her, or that he wanted the Police to think it was the Ripper. Read my posts...Ive never said anything like that here or anywhere. I said that Johns mistakes in his statements lead one to question whether he was being truthfull...so you don't screw this up to, one example is when he says he knew Kate was in jail. Another is when the boots were pawned. Mistakes or lies?
          Statements like this:
          I think the reason he didn't ask about her, seek her out, ask friends if they had seen her, check with where he knew she was in jail Saturday night, is because he already knew she was dead Tuesday
          before
          reading any paper. That just confirmed it I believe.

          How did he know she was dead?

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          • Originally posted by miss marple View Post
            If it is true that all the boot money was spent on food and drink, them it does appear Kate was bought drinks, later possibly in return for favours.
            Or she saved some of the tea and sugar for her own use later.


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            • She may have saved some of the tea, a quarter of a pound of cheap tea was approx sixpence, but that does not explain where she got the money to get very drunk unless someone bought her drinks.

              Miss Marple

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              • I realize this. I don't think any one paid for her drinks, for nothing in return.
                Last edited by Leanne; 08-21-2019, 08:22 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                  Im often puzzled by your posts, where did you ever get the idea that I though John killed her, or that he wanted the Police to think it was the Ripper. Read my posts...Ive never said anything like that here or anywhere. I said that Johns mistakes in his statements lead one to question whether he was being truthfull...so you don't screw this up to, one example is when he says he knew Kate was in jail. Another is when the boots were pawned. Mistakes or lies?
                  Why do you think he deliberately lied and wanted them to think it was on Saturday morning that they pawned the boots?
                  What was he trying to hide?

                  Last edited by Leanne; 08-21-2019, 09:00 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    I think Kate had a meeting, prearranged. It may have been to meet someone at one location and then being sent to another. Kellys story is suspicious, he doesn't even seem concerned that as of Monday night Kate was still unaccounted for. When he knew where she was Saturday night and that she would soon be released.

                    I think Kate sought hush money for what she knew, underestimating how nasty her potential reward money individuals were.
                    What was John Kelly's involvement in this? Do you think he sent her alone to do this blackmailing, instead of doing it himself? And why would it be better to have the police believe that she pawned the boots on Saturday morning?

                    I don't understand what you are convinced happened! Please enlighten me! SPIT IT OUT!

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                    • Why didn't this morally clean woman go to the few people who offered a reward at this stage for information with her suspicions? I think at this early stage only the mayor offered something and the editor of the Police News.

                      If you believe John Kelly knew what Kate was doing and the murderer solved the problem by getting rid of her instead of paying the hush money, why didn't this anger Kelly enough to give the incriminating information to the police?

                      Last edited by Leanne; 08-21-2019, 12:47 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Leanne View Post

                        Why do you think he deliberately lied and wanted them to think it was on Saturday morning that they pawned the boots?
                        What was he trying to hide?
                        That lie hid the fact that Kate had,in fact,gone to Shoe Lane instead of the Mile End casual ward.

                        Shoe Lane was her old friend of 20 years,Polly Nichols' old stomping ground.

                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                          Why didn't this morally clean woman go to the few people who offered a reward at this stage for information with her suspicions? I think at this early stage only the mayor offered something and the editor of the Police News.

                          If you believe John Kelly knew what Kate was doing and the murderer solved the problem by getting rid of her instead of paying the hush money, why didn't this anger Kelly enough to give the incriminating information to the police?
                          Because blackmail was more lucrative.

                          Because blackmail was and still is a crime.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                            Because blackmail was more lucrative.

                            Because blackmail was and still is a crime.
                            He could have done it wisely and said that he just remembered...….. or got someone else to give the information.

                            He Didn't have to say that he sent his woman to a woman-killer to blackmail!
                            Last edited by Leanne; 08-21-2019, 10:42 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              That lie hid the fact that Kate had,in fact,gone to Shoe Lane instead of the Mile End casual ward.
                              How? Please Explain

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                              • I zoomed in on the photo of Mary Kelly and I saw how frightened her eyes looked, it was actually very clear. She was looking down and you could clearly see her mouth omg

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