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Kate's Last Half Hour

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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    How often do desperately poor people with no significant connections to Ireland get embroiled in plots with Irish political agitators?
    As I said before Sam, information like knowing of a local criminal capable of violence was something many Unfortunates had. That information is worth very little unless people are willing to buy it from you. Claiming a reward for providing information is one way, suggesting to that criminal you know that you will be quiet if rewarded for your silence is another. The Irish componenet stems from my belief that she would have met lawabiding and non-law abiding Irish people while she was with Conway. She might know a few people in various circles from that time. And oddly enough at that same moment in time, murders that resemble terrorist acts are happening, a plot to assassinate Lord Balfour was going on, a public hearing into allegations that self rule terrorists had affiliations with Parliamentary figures and complicity in murder plots was going on at that time, people involved in some of these crimes and plots were being paid,.. some in large amounts..., by this hearing for information they had on other plots and people, many of which have ties with the local self rule factions, and a senior investigator suggests in a memo the next year that perhaps a double agent and leading Irish self rule figure might be the culprit they called Jack.

    There is no more favourable time for someone to gain monetarily for possessing information about local criminals, particularly Irish ones, even an impoverished street woman can have information like that. Add to that that on that same weekend, just around the corner, a robbery was taking place, likely throughout Saturday night, proving empiracally that criminals were in the very vicinity she was killed at, at the very same time.

    Its make sense to me Sam. It would address why she was where she was, and for another, why we have unsual facial wounds this time. What doesnt marry well is what happened to Kate and what happened to Annie. They do not seem to be similarlly focussed attacks, and I question why the motivation, the goal, and the reason the killer of Polly and Annie did what he did would not be the same with Kate. From Polly to Annie there is very lttle deviation in those regards. It seems both women were killed by a stranger so he could mutilate the female abdomen, and ultimately, take something internal from there.
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-25-2019, 12:09 AM.
    Michael Richards

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    • Originally posted by DJA View Post

      Ripperologists tend to assume Jack was stalking the women.
      Turn that around. Incidentally there was a bunch of them
      Can you provide us with a link to the evidence of this please.

      Originally posted by DJA View Post
      6 Dorset Street was a three storey house and stables.
      Houses were used for immoral purposes.


      Originally posted by DJA View Post
      Don't forget Mary Ann Kelly had worked at a gay house.
      It's Mary JANE kelly and she'd likely have done anything for money.


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      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

        As I said before Sam, information like knowing of a local criminal capable of violence was something many Unfortunates had.
        And many would have tried to claim the few offers that came from private people that were announced before the Mitre Square murder.

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        That information is worth very little unless people are willing to buy it from you. Claiming a reward for providing information is one way, suggesting to that criminal you know that you will be quiet if rewarded for your silence is another.
        It's another MUCH MORE DANGEROUS way. A way that makes yourself the next likely victim.



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        • Conway had served in the army fighting on the British side, and had spent much of his time in England living in the Midlands. Furthermore, his relationship with Eddowes had ended some time previously. To use him as a means of linking Eddowes to recent Fenian activity, indeed, to posit that Conway himself was ever thus engaged, is quite a stretch.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Conway had served in the army fighting on the British side, and had spent much of his time in England living in the Midlands. Furthermore, his relationship with Eddowes had ended some time previously. To use him as a means of linking Eddowes to recent Fenian activity, indeed, to posit that Conway himself was ever thus engaged, is quite a stretch.
            I suggest she would have met people associated with irish causes Sam, I don't intend to suggest these were current associates.Her relationship with Conway was much different than with Kelly as you know, the influences she had then may be the source of that "associate".
            Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-26-2019, 01:01 PM.
            Michael Richards

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            • I see little to indicate that in either her or Conway's past, what little we know of it.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                I see little to indicate that in either her or Conway's past, what little we know of it.
                Sam, we don't need empirical evidence to show that immigrant population in any city in the world gravitate to their own kind. There would have been Polish people that banded together when arriving in London, Irish ones, Americans...in Toronto we have street signage that is written in languages other than English or French as a result of those ethnic enclaves. Just as shared affluence or poverty would be "bonding".
                Michael Richards

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                • But Fenian certainly weren't Kate's kind and, even though Conway was Irish, it doesn't mean that he was a Fenian sympathiser. Besides, he and Eddowes had long since ceased being an item.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Hello from a new member (as a poster) but an avid reader for god-knows-how-long...first interested in the JtR in the early 90s, watching Michael Kaine in the miniseries...

                    I am an engineer, neither a cop nor a historian. And though that provides no "street wisdom" or "hands on" know-how with thugs and witnesses, my M.O. is protocol, statistics and above all, methodology as a systemic concept. This means that systems, considered as dynamic and complex entities, are usually (physical systems) hostile to monolithic, one-sided considerations. Which seem to be the problem for most candidancies offered. And at the same time, for most suspects being ruled-out (sometimes for the same candidancy the method is used either to include him or to exonerate him...a ripperworld feat to be admired for sure!).

                    So why did I choose this topic to bother you with my existence? Because it tries to stick with protocol of the system. The "camera" does not assume to follow certain candidates (or, even worse, try to indulge in their mindset)... but tries to follow up the victim's trajectory.

                    1. Was her trajectory deliberate or random? It sure wasn't towards John Kelly, who by the way was full of ****.
                    2. Was her earlier circus show intended by those parties who got her drunk? And the arrest?
                    3. Was she rushed to her death simply by geography? (The killer needed a Jew reference like earlier on with Stride)
                    4. Was the double event a necessity out of interruption or a deliberate double blow with respective double antisemitism?
                    5. (the most "coincidential" (sic) of all) the alias of Eddowes.

                    In serial killers, the system is not only chaotic (marginal conditions we call them in electromagnetism, why would human condition be less perplexed), but also unstable. And "theory" has no prior preconceived "gold standards" -- if they ever existed. We expand out knowledge of serial homicide as new entries are added in this sad chapter of human psychology -- criminal psychology, but dear friends, this is first and foremost about the human condition and only by successive default it is about police work or East End extravaganza. This ain't about the foul bleakness of Whitechapel. This was just the canvas, a turmoiled one indeed , with many opportunities for a deranged mind.

                    What should interest us in the studying of parameters (and sadly, these lost lives should be, in a proper systemic analysis, regarded as parameters, or even better variables), is the correlating factor. This will bring the avalanche rolling (axe-swindling?).

                    The correlation here is geography. Physical vicinity. Of infamous lodging houses, landlords, addresses, aliases, and in the end, physical entities: victims and the killer.

                    ** In victims, expand the canonical ones to seemingly all the names of women attacked, even if they survived, even if they "claimed" a "mob" attacked.

                    Focus on the geography as correlating factor, and leave for a minute aside the decade-long name-calling. The most baffling factor in this case, aside from the "face" of the killer obviously, is the motive.

                    But why? Thousands of prostitutes in London. Did he go for the East End underground sensation? Too early to be a hipster or a mod. Did he go for ugly? MJK disputes it. Did he go for drunks? Alcohol never played a part in the actual murder. This wasn't deception or deviation. This was wanton.

                    Motive comes through the correlating factor. Geography. Vicinity.

                    The physical entities involved, all knew each other. They all lied, even those who survived (especially those who survived the attack) -- And they all had a deeper agenda than the superficial observation of drinking and seeking the 4-pence.

                    Motive is slowly shaped into form via that foul web of lodging houses.

                    And if time is another axis for space, then the "time window" of 1887-1891 is the respective "transition" of geography in terms of years.

                    The time frame is as suffocating as the geographical vicinity indeed.


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                    • Welcome Lipsky.

                      Engineering analysis is a handy tool.

                      Although not a fan,you'd prolly enjoy Michael Caine's portrayal of Abberline in the 1988 mini series

                      Best of luck!
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        Welcome Lipsky.

                        Engineering analysis is a handy tool.

                        Although not a fan,you'd prolly enjoy Michael Caine's portrayal of Abberline in the 1988 mini series

                        Best of luck!
                        Thank you for the welcome, Dave! Love your posting style and input.

                        I loved MIchael Caine in the miniseries, in Alfie, in Nolan's wagnerian movies.... I'd love him even if he portrayed Chapman posing as Kosminski registered as Cohen in a fabulous Jill-Mary P victorian tutu contesting for RuPaul's UK drag race with a Victorian twist, where Michael Alig would be the Leather Apron (erm wait.. he was?) and Keoki remixing the Star's mocking verses of Sir Charles with a Morgan Freeman voiceover of the "From Hell" letter.... or is that too far-fetched?

                        Though my trip missed out on the Russian angle -- Pedachenko, a factory plant worker-cum-time traveller zoned accidentally during the Chenobyl night one hundred years ( "of blood crimson") back in time then fleeing into a murderous rage cuz he would never go partying again in a soviet-era discotheque....can you blame him?

                        Did noone ever suggest "Lipsky" could have been "Levitski" heard wrong by a pissing-his-pants Schwarz?

                        On a serious note cuz I made myself look demented ---- would the Eddowes murder occur even if the physical entity "JtR" was NEVER interrupted? i.e. was the double event preconceived as such regardless of the interruption on Jewish Site #1?
                        Last edited by Lipsky; 08-26-2019, 11:35 PM.

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                        • Firstly,who is this Noone character

                          Jack was not interrupted.
                          Hip Lipped Lizzie and the cashous suggest she had Hereditary hemorrhagic telangietasia.

                          Unlike those with TB or post rheumatic fever/Gull - Sutton disease,Stride had nothing to take.
                          Last edited by DJA; 08-27-2019, 12:44 AM.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            They lived "as partners" Leanne, and the fact that he doesn't wonder where she was may well be the indicator that he already knew what she was up to, and approved of it. they may have cooked up this "blackmail" idea together for all we know. The blackmail idea is far from frivolous considering we do have in evidence she was intent on getting money for information she felt she had. So, why not maximize your potential? How often do you think these desperately poor people get a chance to get money for just telling someone else something? She might have seen this opportunity as her answer to her financial woes.
                            He heard that she'd been locked up at the police station....SAFE!
                            Why didn't he check?...…...He had no boots! As I just found out, they very likely intended to get the boots back when they had the money.

                            I agree that he knew what Kate was up to and probably encouraged it. They probably used the room at 6 Dorset Street to earn money.

                            As for an arranged meeting to blackmail, when did they arrange it? Before they went hop-picking? Why did they go? How did they know it was going to be a bad season for hopping, giving them a reason for coming home?

                            WHAT INFORMATION COULD SHE HAVE HAD?...have a guess.
                            Have you checked how many reward offers were made BEFORE her murder?

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                            • Originally posted by Leanne View Post

                              WHAT INFORMATION COULD SHE HAVE HAD?...have a guess.
                              Have you checked how many reward offers were made BEFORE her murder?


                              That's precisely why I think she saw a way to increase her revenue by approaching the party in question and bargaining for a better sum. 2 days after her murder the reward became fairly substantial, being supplied by 2 sources. But before her murder the only person who would care enough to give her money for her information would have been someone she intended to inform the police about.

                              Michael Richards

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                              • Times (London)
                                September 17, 1888
                                THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS.
                                ONE HUNDRED POUNDS REWARD - The Whitechapel Murder
                                The proprietor of the Illustrated Police News offers the above reward to any person who will give information as to the perpetrator of the crime of the murder of Mrs. Chapman. The above reward will be paid upon conviction of the murderer. Office, No. 286, Strand.



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