Stride..a victim?

[DJA]

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

Reckon.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'll ask a question though: why is it being said (even by Sugden) that Fanny Mortimer was on her doorstep almost continuously from 12.30 until 1.00?

Because she is quoted as saying that.

She said that she'd heard a policeman's tread just before 12.45.

She is not quoted as saying that.

Smith however says that this occurred 10 minutes earlier. Why is Mortimer believed over a PC on his beat?

Good question! I'll respond with both a question and an answer.

What colour was the flower - red, as noted by Reid, or white, as claimed by Packer?

The reason Mortimer is believed over Smith, is because it pushes Smith's timing forward, so that he returns comfortably after 1am.
The purpose is to save Louis Diemschitz' claim to have turned into Berner street at exactly 1am.
The reason for wanting to do this, is that Louis' 1am arrival can then be used to discredit the arrival times (claimed or inferred) of Spooner (~12:35), Kozebrodsky (~12:40), Heshburg (~12:45), Lamb (~1:00), and Smith (~1:03), and thus set the stage for the Schwartz incident.
Israel Schwartz - a virtual nobody - must be protected from scrutiny.

If Mortimer actually heard Smith when he said that he was there then she was inside her house for 15 minutes?

She was outside before Smith went by, and she was outside after Smith went by.
She was not outside when Smith went by, and missed seeing Stride and parcel man as a consequence.
As Stride is not long after found in the lane, it is logical to suppose that she went into the lane with parcel man, and from there, that the parcel wrapped in newspaper is actually a cutlery bag.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep.

Might be known as the Ridgemount Hotel these days. Owned by the Duke of Bedford.

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

[Trevor Marriott]

I believe that JTR's MO in general was to conduct a thorough recce of the chosen sites days or even weeks in advance and most of them have certain features in common including dim but passable lighting and, I believe, at least two possible exit routes. In the case of Dutfield's Yard one would have been Berner Street itself and the one that I think he used, into the Yard and over the back wall. I think there is no doubt that he was a fit man and capable of that, or of hopping over one or other of the Hanbury Street fences if necessary. Having chosen a site he would then select an opportunistic target and lead them there (except perhaps the last who, I believe, inadvertently let her killer in.

But that would have meant him loitering in the areas he had selected and then reliant on a victim being able to be picked up in that same location. I doubt picking a victim up in another part of Whitechapel and walking a great distance would be in his best interests. What if his intended victim had been seen and perhaps spoken to by acquaintance en route when she was walking to his intended murder site he could then have been seen and later identified perhaps.

A better explanation might be that some of the women knew the locations where they could take clients.

We do not know who the killer was so your belief in his athletic attributes is pure conjecture

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

Yep.

Known as the Ridgemount Hotel these days. Owned by the Duke of Bedford.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just looking through Sugden. At the time of her marriage Stride was listed as living at 67 Gower Street. Where was this? Surely it wasn't the one in Fitzrovia?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. "Mrs Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school".

It's difficult to see how we can put much weight on Mrs Mortimer. She tells the Evening News reporter that she heard the constable's footsteps just before 12.45 and she immediately went to her front door. This means that prior to that she wasn't at her front door but inside her house. If she's correct in her time then it's prior to 12.45 if Smith is correct it's prior to 12.35.

She remained on her doorstep for 10 minutes during which time she saw Goldstein then she went back inside. So that's until either 12.45 (if Smith was correct) or 12.55 (if Mortimer was correct)

5 or 6 minutes later she hears Diemschutz then the commotion from the yard (so she's still indoors) Or if Smith was correct then her 5 or 6 minutes was more like 16 or 17 minutes.

So she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes only between 12.30 and 1.00.

And if Smith was correct then she went back inside just as Schwartz arrived.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok I've just read through Sugden and Begg on events in Berner Street and it's pretty obvious that these events could be discussed until the end of time with no positive conclusions.

I'll ask a question though: why is it being said (even by Sugden) that Fanny Mortimer was on her doorstep almost continuously from 12.30 until 1.00? She said that she'd heard a policeman's tread just before 12.45. Smith however says that this occurred 10 minutes earlier. Why is Mortimer believed over a PC on his beat? If Mortimer actually heard Smith when he said that he was there then she was inside her house for 15 minutes?

"Mrs Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school".

The expanded version includes the bootsteps Herlock...she thought they were policemens...and the fact that she was at her door continuously from 12:50 until going back inside just after 1.

What you have that is believable is;

12:35: Liz is seen with someone holding a parcel at 12:35. Fanny is at her door off and on from 12:30. Lave is at the gates.
12:40: Eagle returns to the club and goes to the gates. Lave is at the gates. 4 witnesses say they were alerted to the dying woman in the passageway, all say Louis was there too. 2 men are sent for help. Issac Kozebrodki is also sent out alone. The 2 men meet Spooner and return to the club with him.
12:45: Israel says he sees Liz outside the gates being accosted, a man smoking a pipe watches. James Brown sees the young couple.
12:50: Fanny is at her door until just after 1.
12:55: Fanny sees only Leon Goldstein.
1:00: Louis says he arrived to discover the body. He and Eagle leave for help, Louis with Issac[s] and Eagle by himself.

The rest plays out as its claimed essentially. The return of Eagle, the police, Blackwells Asst arrives...all those things take place at around the times given.

The problems? Israel and everything he says. Louis's arrival time. The lack of clear identification of the 2 men that meet Spooner, the fact that Lave and Eagle say they were in the same place at the same time yet neither sees anything. the fact that if the 4 witnesses are right, Louis and Eagle are aware of the dying woman but do not go for help themselves for at least 15 minutes. The fact Fanny is at her door and does not see or hear Louis arrive at 1. The fact that Goldstein passes at a time when 4 witnesses say they and others were around the body just inside the passage, yet mentiones nothing. The fact that Eagle "couldnt be sure" whether a dying Liz is there when he walks into the passage.

I have a minute by minute, statement by statement chart for this I made years ago...and the only untrustworthy accounts are Israel, Louis, Morris and Lave. All the guys who worked at the Anarchist club.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok I've just read through Sugden and Begg on events in Berner Street and it's pretty obvious that these events could be discussed until the end of time with no positive conclusions.

I'll ask a question though: why is it being said (even by Sugden) that Fanny Mortimer was on her doorstep almost continuously from 12.30 until 1.00? She said that she'd heard a policeman's tread just before 12.45. Smith however says that this occurred 10 minutes earlier. Why is Mortimer believed over a PC on his beat? If Mortimer actually heard Smith when he said that he was there then she was inside her house for 15 minutes?

[DJA]

Morris Eagle, who also affirmed, said: I live at No. 4, New-road, Commercial-road, and travel in jewellery. I am a member of the International Workmen's Club, which meets at 40, Berner-street. I was there on Saturday, several times during the day, and was in the chair during the discussion in the evening. After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.
[Coroner] Did you notice anything lying on the ground near the gates? - I did not.
[Coroner] Did you pass in the middle of the gateway? - I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.
[Coroner] Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then? - I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.
[Coroner] You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there? - No.
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.
[Coroner] Did you observe any one in the yard? - I do not remember that I did.
[Coroner] If there had been a man and woman there you would have remembered the circumstance? - Yes; I am sure of that.
[Coroner] Did you notice whether there were any lights in the tenements opposite the club? - I do not recollect.
[Coroner] Are you often at the club late at night? - Yes, very often.
[Coroner] In the yard, too? - No, not in the yard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Agreed Herlock, but there is mention of a very thorough search of the club, backstage area, top and bottom floors...and all the members in attendance were searched. There was no knife discovered, so, it was either hidden or taken from the scene...if its the second, then the killer would have to have left after 1am. Thats the key takeaway. Fanny is at her door from 12:50 until 1 continuously, she only sees Goldstein. Liz is cut roughly around 12:46-12:56 by Blackwell, so...the killer is likely still there when Goldstein passes around 12:50-55. The slim egress window is from 12:46... if thats the cut time.... to 12:50 when Fanny is back at her door. If the cut is closer to 12:56, then he is still there when Goldstein passes and cannot leave unseen until after 1.

If the knife is hidden, the implication is that the man who hides it is still there being part of the leftovers from the meeting.

Let me ask you....IF the killer is Jack the Ripper...(an outside possibility at best, but for the sake of discussion)...and NOT at the club as a guest or member, then why would he stay after he kills? If he has 5 minutes there while Fanny is at her door until 1, then why doesnt he do more to Liz? We know no-one leaves via that passageway from 12:50 until 1am.

Now add this....4 witnesses say that they were by the dying woman, with others including Louis, at around 12:40-12:45. Now....did this killer just slip into the picture, kill Liz, and leave unseen before those men are gathered? We know Liz is seen at 12:35.

I hope youre beginning to see that there is a high degree of likelihood that the killer wasnt seen on the street by anyone including Fanny. So where did he come from? How is it he is on the scene without being seen? Fanny and James Brown see the young couple, Fanny sees Goldestin...thats all the people seen on that street between 12:35 and 1am. Unless of course the 4 witnesses were correct, and the raeson Fanny didnt see 2 running for help and returning with Spooner is because that happened after Fanny lost sight of Liz and went indoors for a few minutes.

Fanny said she was at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:35 until 1, and we know she is there from 12:50 to 1 by virtue of her sighting. She also said if anyone had come out from the club "she must have seen them". We also know Fanny does not see Louis arrive, or even approaching, at 1.

Using that framework its easy to see a killer unseen from the street because he is on club property, and that ist possible that Louis lied about when he arrived. Perfectly understandable, and in keeping with the evidence.

Anarchists would not want to be blamed for "nothing".

I need to put in the effort to spend some time checking the witnesses and who was where and at what time and who did or didn't see whatever. Add this to the fact that I'm hopeless on directions and maps and where was so and so in relation to so and so leaves the Stride murder the most difficult for me. In short I'm really rusty on details. For eg you say that FM was at her door from... but it appears that she went back inside at around 12.45 but I don't know how long for?

Someone exiting the yard and walking rapidly away would have been gone from the street in a few seconds. Are you saying that it would have been impossible for them not to have been seen?

[DJA]

That spot in Dutfield's Yard was probably the safest of the lot,bar number 13.

Eagle probably walked straight past in the dark.

Probably no police beat in the yard.

The pony refusing to walk over a body was probably after Jack left.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I believe that JTR's MO in general was to conduct a thorough recce of the chosen sites days or even weeks in advance and most of them have certain features in common including dim but passable lighting and, I believe, at least two possible exit routes. In the case of Dutfield's Yard one would have been Berner Street itself and the one that I think he used, into the Yard and over the back wall. I think there is no doubt that he was a fit man and capable of that, or of hopping over one or other of the Hanbury Street fences if necessary. Having chosen a site he would then select an opportunistic target and lead them there (except perhaps the last who, I believe, inadvertently let her killer in.

Surely if the killer had undertaken a recce he could easily have come up with a far less risky site than Dutfield's Yard?

[DJA]

What difference would a scented lozenge used to sweeten the breath make to a genetic blood vessel disorder?

Catechu - Wikipedia

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia

[DJA]

Wish you would take a long walk on a short pier

I don't suffer idiots @ 2.15am. Especially when compiling tomorrow's food delivery.