Stride..a victim?

[caz]

But that would have meant him loitering in the areas he had selected and then reliant on a victim being able to be picked up in that same location. I doubt picking a victim up in another part of Whitechapel and walking a great distance would be in his best interests. What if his intended victim had been seen and perhaps spoken to by acquaintance en route when she was walking to his intended murder site he could then have been seen and later identified perhaps.

A better explanation might be that some of the women knew the locations where they could take clients.

I agree, Trev. There's a first time for everything.

By far the easiest and least risky way for a killer to engage with a potential victim was to behave like a regular punter and see if she would take him to where she usually conducted business, where he would then assess the suitability of the location for his plans, before parting with any money.

Where I expect we will disagree is that I suspect the killer was a regular punter in the area, which would explain why he was able to get away with what he did each time. The difference would be that instead of both parties leaving the scene after a brief unwitnessed sex act, only the man would be walking away after an unwitnessed act of murder, leading to mutilation if the circumstances allowed.

I would only expect things to go to plan for the killer on every occasion if he was right about the woman being 'available', and he was happy with the location they ended up in.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

It's difficult to see how we can put much weight on Mrs Mortimer. She tells the Evening News reporter that she heard the constable's footsteps just before 12.45 and she immediately went to her front door. This means that prior to that she wasn't at her front door but inside her house. If she's correct in her time then it's prior to 12.45 if Smith is correct it's prior to 12.35.

She remained on her doorstep for 10 minutes during which time she saw Goldstein then she went back inside. So that's until either 12.45 (if Smith was correct) or 12.55 (if Mortimer was correct)

5 or 6 minutes later she hears Diemschutz then the commotion from the yard (so she's still indoors) Or if Smith was correct then her 5 or 6 minutes was more like 16 or 17 minutes.

So she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes only between 12.30 and 1.00.

And if Smith was correct then she went back inside just as Schwartz arrived.

You have her own words Herlock.."nearly the whole time". Why there is a tendency to imagine that she missed large chunks of time is beyond me. She didnt. She was at her door "off and on" for nearly the whole half hour. the last 10 minutes of the hour we can call The Vigil. Its a prolonged time at the door, unlike what she suggests are intermittent visits until that time. She sees nothing, no-one..save the young couple and Goldstein during that time.

I think its a mistake to imagine that she happened to take a prolonged break from the door to allow for Liz, Israel, BSM and Pipeman to suddenly materialize then just as suddenly vanish. I see no possible ulterior motives from Fanny, other than her being able to toss in a few things that bother her about the club, and I do see lots of potential ulterior motives from Louis, Morris, Joseph and Mrs D.

You say above "So she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes only between 12.30 and 1.00.", thats not what Fanny said. She said "nearly the whole time." A few minutes here and there going inside, not 20 minutes without a street view. 1 thing that is undeniable is that if she stayed at her door from 12:50 to 1 and didnt se or hear any cart or horse arriving, Louis was incorrect when he asserted he arrived "precisely" at 1, or he lied.

I believe you and others are interpreting what you think the witnesses meant when they gave their stories, instead of understanding what is actually being said.

Nearly the whole time, precisely, 4 men stating they were by the dying woman with other club members including Louis at 12:40-12:45, deserted street, no-one came out through the gates,.....these are very understandable comments and not needing any "what they really meant" philosophizing.

I just thought of Monty Python when I wrote that, the "What I merely meant" sketch.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
However, that Fanny probably went to her doorstep after Smith passes, does not preclude her from being on her doorstep before he passes

I'd say that it certainly does preclude that. She supposedly heard Smith at just before 12.45. So you would be suggesting that she had been out and gone back in again between 12.30 and say 12.43/4? Is it really likely that she'd have gone in and out over such a short space of time?

She also said that she'd heard Smith around 10 minutes after he himself said that he'd passed. So who was the likeliest to have been correct? A woman who might not even have owned a clock or a Constable on a regulated beat! I asked earlier if Smith had entered the street the same way that Diemschutz did (yes, my terrible sense of direction and geography) because if he did then he'd have passed the Baker's shop and seen the same clock that Louis did. Therefore it's likeliest that she came out of her house at around 12.35, stood for 10 minutes and then went back inside at 12.45 (missing Schwartz. BS man and pipe man episode) It would also mean that her 5 or 6 minutes was out by 10 minutes.

Either way she spends no more than 10 minutes on her doorstep from 12.30 until 1.00.

I don't see Fanny Mortimer as a very reliable witness.

[Prosector]

But that would have meant him loitering in the areas he had selected and then reliant on a victim being able to be picked up in that same location. I doubt picking a victim up in another part of Whitechapel and walking a great distance would be in his best interests. What if his intended victim had been seen and perhaps spoken to by acquaintance en route when she was walking to his intended murder site he could then have been seen and later identified perhaps.

A better explanation might be that some of the women knew the locations where they could take clients.

We do not know who the killer was so your belief in his athletic attributes is pure conjecture

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

With due respect to my fellow posters I would speculate that 90% of things posted on this site are pure conjecture. As for my conjecture that he was treasonably fit and well-built, I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion given what we know of the killings. Just getting from Berner Street to Mitre Square in the time available calls for reasonable fitness, particularly if he had had to exit Dutfield's Yard by climbing over walls at the end after having dispatched Liz Stride (assuming it's the same man). I've done it myself several times without any climbing and it calls for fairly brisk walking.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you remember this?...





We need to be cautious when attributing words to people, on the basis of an apparent paraphrasing of their words by a journalist.
Especially so in this case...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement.

If this statement is so important, why not quote the woman? Why not name the woman?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door...

Why does the journalist use the qualifying statement 'It appears that...', when commencing with details from this important statement? Does he not quite believe her?
Perhaps the problem is that he is having difficulty reconciling the statements of certain witnesses, which at face value, are partially conflicting.

So you are attributing more weight to one journalist version over another based on the words "it appears that" which simply means the same as 'according to a witness this is what happened.'

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thatīs as fair an answer as anybody could ask for, Frank. I note that Herlock chips in and says that whatever doubt he has are - just as in your case - location-based. As you know, the suspect I have in mind had his mother staying a stoneīs throw away from Berner Street, and he would likewise have had his old watering holes in this exact vicinity. And it was a Saturday night.
Of course, that plays a role in my thinking; if we reason that the killer would have needed to be tipsy to go for a kill in Dutfieldīs Yard, then what we have is a description of a tipsy man having a physical altercation with Stride some little time before she was killed - and a carman who may have done the rounds in the local pubs. To me, it makes perfect sense, but to anybody who has not seen the light ( ), it could of course be another story.

Thanks, anyway, for your post, it was a refreshing read.

There is very little light where I'm standing, Christer. Very little light.
In fact, I would have to say that I'm almost completely in the dark.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ahhh. Back in conspiracy land.

Goodnight

No.

You asked why people believed Mortimer over Smith, so I gave my opinion on what people think now, not what the police were thinking then.

If you doubt that knowledgeable people are clinging to preferred beliefs in the face of substantial evidence against, just look at the nonsense trotted out regarding the colour of Stride's flower - and not a hint of protest!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know how your coming to these conclusions?

She heard Smith, she didn't see him, so she was inside the house at the time. She came outside for 10 minutes then went back inside. The next thing she heard was Diemschutz. That's 10 minutes out of 30 by earth maths.

Fanny: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

That 30 minute period may well be subjective - she mentions no clock or timepiece - so the start and end times are also subject to uncertainty.
At face value, however, this is the maths:

30 minutes minus nearly all of 30 minutes = some minutes

It was during some or all of those remaining minutes that Smith went by.

As she doesn't see Smith, Stride, or parcel man, all we can say is that for the period those people are in doorstep visible range, she must be inside.
However, that Fanny probably went to her doorstep after Smith passes, does not preclude her from being on her doorstep before he passes.
This is the maths:

30 minutes minus (some minutes plus 10 minutes) = several minutes

It was during those several minutes that Fanny was on her doorstep, before the passing of Smith and the appearance of Stride and PM.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

??

She told a reporter for The Evening News:

"....that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat."

Do you remember this?...

But the witness was not being quoted. It was described as a statement she made 'to the effect that...'

A very different beast.

We see it all the time on these boards where direct quotes are not used, so someone's words can be interpreted subjectively as being 'to the effect that... [fill in the blank with something more, er, creative]'.

It's what journalists do, and it's not hard to see it in action anywhere.

Love,

Caz
X

Watch it Caz. Someone will send the men in white coats for you if you persist in using common sense.

We need to be cautious when attributing words to people, on the basis of an apparent paraphrasing of their words by a journalist.
Especially so in this case...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement.

If this statement is so important, why not quote the woman? Why not name the woman?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door...

Why does the journalist use the qualifying statement 'It appears that...', when commencing with details from this important statement? Does he not quite believe her?
Perhaps the problem is that he is having difficulty reconciling the statements of certain witnesses, which at face value, are partially conflicting.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wish you would take a long walk on a short pier

I don't suffer idiots @ 2.15am. Especially when compiling tomorrow's food delivery.

If only an idiot would disagree with you, why did you bother posting the links?
Was that for the benefit of the other idiots?

Catechu - Wikipedia

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia

[Herlock Sholmes]

Actually I'll ask one last question would Smith have come into the street from the same direction as Diemschutz?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
The reason Mortimer is believed over Smith, is because it pushes Smith's timing forward, so that he returns comfortably after 1am.
The purpose is to save Louis Diemschitz' claim to have turned into Berner street at exactly 1am.
The reason for wanting to do this, is that Louis' 1am arrival can then be used to discredit the arrival times (claimed or inferred) of Spooner (~12:35), Kozebrodsky (~12:40), Heshburg (~12:45), Lamb (~1:00), and Smith (~1:03), and thus set the stage for the Schwartz incident.
Israel Schwartz - a virtual nobody - must be protected from scrutiny.

Ahhh. Back in conspiracy land.

Goodnight

[Herlock Sholmes]

. house for 15 minutes?
She was outside before Smith went by, and she was outside after Smith went by

I don't know how your coming to these conclusions?

She heard Smith, she didn't see him, so she was inside the house at the time. She came outside for 10 minutes then went back inside. The next thing she heard was Diemschutz. That's 10 minutes out of 30 by earth maths.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. She is not quoted as saying that.

??

She told a reporter for The Evening News:

"....that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat."

[DJA]

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

Oddly enough,the 9th Duke of Bedford who owned the place at that time was married to Lady Elizabeth Sackville-West who's family owned .....



Vita Sackville-West was known for her affair with Virginia Woolf. Woolf was treated by George Savage,Sutton's son in law.

Small world.