Stride..a victim?

[Joshua Rogan]

I suppose it doesn't greatly matter, but what do you make of the paving stones in the video? The inquest refers Stride's body being across a 'carriage-wheel rut,' and I always imagined, perhaps wrongly, of the yard being partially dirt, or broken up stones, and this rut being reasonably deep.

Hi rj
I think it looks reasonably how I imagined it. It's always been unclear to me if the gutter with the blood running down it to the drain (mentioned by Louis D and Spooner) is the same as the wheel-rut (mentioned by Blackwell), or if they were separate grooves in the yard. I fancy I can just make out slight ruts in the cobbles, though it would be nice to be able to get down to ground level for a better look.

Daily Telegraph 2 Oct
Louis D: "The gutter of the yard is paved with large stones, and the centre with smaller irregular stones."

DT 3 Oct
Spooner: "It was running down the gutter."

Blackwell: "The deceased was lying on her left side obliquely across the passage, her face looking towards the right wall. Her legs were drawn up, her feet close against the wall of the right side of the passage. Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut. Her feet were three yards from the gateway."

If memory serves, Richard used a slightly later photograph (found by Philip Hutchinson) for reference, so I would expect the cobbling texture to be reasonably accurate (at least for when the photo was taken) but he can probably better tell you himself.

[rjpalmer]

He is a bit of a hero :-)

It's a work of art. Of course, he appears to have made the rookie mistake of using the later map showing the stairs....so if you're reading Richard, if you could just redo the whole thing using the earlier 1890 Goad map (the pink one above) I'd upgrade you to Total Hero. You know you want to!

I suppose it doesn't greatly matter, but what do you make of the paving stones in the video? The inquest refers Stride's body being across a 'carriage-wheel rut,' and I always imagined, perhaps wrongly, of the yard being partially dirt, or broken up stones, and this rut being reasonably deep.

[Michael W Richards]

If youll notice Fanny doesnt say she saw Morris, she recites what she had heard, for example there is no way she would know how dark the passageway was at that time. Yet she says it was "very dark". Good you noticed what Lave missed seeing, including Morris returning to the club.

As for Spooner, he walked with his date from the closed pub on Commercial and stood with his date outside the Beehive for about 25 minutes, thats well within the "about 20 to 1" time he gives and its in agreement with 3 other people, including Issac K. What needs to happen for you to accept that is to let go the idea that Louis went out after 1am with Issac K, and that it was Louis and Issac K Spooner met. It was 2 other Jews. Louis even says it was Issac[s], and everyone assumed he meant Issac K. Not according to Issac himself though, he went out "alone", just after 12:40.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So is Morris Eagle, and of course, Louis.

Mrs Diemschitz corroborated Eagle's return, but not Lave's.

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

Lave probably should have seen Stride and parcel man, but didn't.
There is something not right with Lave's story.

Eorth mentioning that Issac Kozebrdoski is quote as saying he learned of the body at around 12:40 and was sent out alone..."by Diesmshitz or some other member") shortly thereafter. Or, 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrives at the gates.

I touched on that issue in the Spooner thread.

[Michael W Richards]

Joseph Lave is a bit of a problem...

I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though.

So is Morris Eagle, and of course, Louis. 1 lived in a cottage in the passageway and was a photographer used by the club, 1 was the club speaker that night, and the last is the steward. All with direct ties to the club operations. The 4 men I mentioned before, with the exception of Issac Kozebrodski, are at best meeting attendees, perhaps club members, and a bystander. Worth mentioning that Issac Kozebrodski is quote as saying he learned of the body at around 12:40 and was sent out alone..."by Diemshitz or some other member") shortly thereafter. Or, 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrives at the gates.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So, from 12:35 until she is found...which if you believe 4 corroborated stories both in times and details, takes place around 1240-12:45. That leaves from 5-10 minutes, or up to 25 minutes if you choose to believe Louis's times.

Joseph Lave is a bit of a problem...

I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though.

[Michael W Richards]

I'll take the risk of sounding like a broken record Michael but you're asking for something that wouldn't necessarily exist. If Stride's killer was interrupted after he'd cut her throat then there wouldn't be any evidence pointing to an intention to mutilate. A raised skirt has been mentioned but this wouldn't have occurred if the interruption occurred just after or concurrently with the throat-cutting.

The 'evidence'' tells us that this was a period in time where a series of murders were occurring. These took place over a period of just over 2 months (7 if you include Tabram) within a small geographical area. The victims were women who were either full or part-time prostitutes who had their throats cut and were mutilated. Tabram is included by many and yet she wasn't mutilated but the killer spent time stabbing her 39 times. Why isn't she categorically eliminated? Because we accept the possibility that this might have been the killers first time which might explain the difference. So if we have Stride, a known prostitute (yes I realised that she worked too) murdered within the series why is it less valid to ask if there might also have been a reason, like Tabram, for the lack of mutilation?

Now if Stride had been discovered in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street with no mutilations then the case for interruption would be considerably weakened of course (although still not dismiss able) But with Stride we have Diemschutz and his cart at the right spot at the right time to potentially account for interruption.

I think that any police investigation today, unless they discovered some medical or forensic evidence, would have to consider it very possible or likely that Stride was killed by the man that killed Nichols and Chapman. There are no definite's and it's entirely possible that this wasn't a ripper killing but we can't be certain either way but the circumstances lead us to that belief.

For my sensibilities Herlock .. Stride to have been killed by a Ripper and not Ripped means he didnt have time. An interruption, he took a second to light a smoke, stood and watched her die...whatever the delay or impromptu interruption, it would be impossible to justify linking Stride with Jack unless that segmented attack happened. Thing is, as Ive been saying oh so many times lately, there is no foundation in the known evidence for a theory of an interrupted attack. Interruption....she was flipped onto her back, her skirts are raised, any sort of evidence he even touched her again after he lets go of her scarf...none,...that he had a smoke, I dont recall seeing Mrs Mortimer seeing smoke from the entrance to the yard, nor do I see cigarette butts' found during the crime scene investigation,...he stood and watched her die? who knows about that...there is no legtimate sighting of Liz Stride alive after 12:35, and Fanny..... at her door off and on until fully on at 12:50, never sees anyone but the young couple and Goldstein. Leon also must have been passing those gates while the killer was with Liz. So, from 12:35 until she is found...which if you believe 4 corroborated stories both in times and details, takes place around 1240-12:45. That leaves from 5-10 minutes, or up to 25 minutes if you choose to believe Louis's times. Its estimated that in Mitre Square the killer if seen with Kate by Lawende has around 7-8 minutes max to do all he does there. I will note here that its possible the cut was made at approximately the same time as the 4 witnesses say they became aware of it, and perhaps 10 minutes before Goldstein passes.

7-8 minutes, he decimates Kate, steals an organ, cuts colon and cloth, nicks her face while slicing her nose, packs up and leaves...all within 7-8 minutes maximum.

Now, look at the Stride case. The killer has between 5 and 25 minutes when Liz is out of sight. Look what he accomplished. He grabbed her scarf, twisted it and pulled it making her bent and off balance, slides a knife under her chin, and drops the scarf. 2 seconds.

If he uses that time to play cards, it would have to have been Solitaire.

[Fisherman]

[/COLOR][/FONT][/I][/B][/FONT]The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.

Thatīs as fair an answer as anybody could ask for, Frank. I note that Herlock chips in and says that whatever doubt he has are - just as in your case - location-based. As you know, the suspect I have in mind had his mother staying a stoneīs throw away from Berner Street, and he would likewise have had his old watering holes in this exact vicinity. And it was a Saturday night.
Of course, that plays a role in my thinking; if we reason that the killer would have needed to be tipsy to go for a kill in Dutfieldīs Yard, then what we have is a description of a tipsy man having a physical altercation with Stride some little time before she was killed - and a carman who may have done the rounds in the local pubs. To me, it makes perfect sense, but to anybody who has not seen the light ( ), it could of course be another story.

Thanks, anyway, for your post, it was a refreshing read.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[/COLOR][/FONT][/I][/B][/FONT]The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.

For what it's worth Frank any doubts that I have are location-based too.

[FrankO]

Maybe Stride turned her back to the killer and made for the gates, making him grab the scarf from behind. We just canīt know.

The evidence fits such a scenario very well, Christer. Perhaps she’d been standing with her back to the wall with her killer in front of her, pressing her on her shoulders, especially her right one, to prevent her from leaving, then he let her leave anyway and grabbed her by the scarf with his left hand as she’d turned towards the gates, pulling her backwards and making her spin as and end up on the ground on her left side. But you’re right, we just can’t know.

This very much belongs to the picture, and if we did not have the Eddowes murder on the same night and in that location, I think you will have to agree that it would have graded down the viability of the suggestion that Stride was killed by the Ripper. And that is as it should be, if you ask me. The link to Eddowes is of significant importance when we weigh it all up.

It is as it should be. And while you and others give a lot of weight to this evidence, I give the Ripper’s desire to mutilate a lot of weight. Looking at the Stride murder ‘with those glasses on’, I have doubts as to whether the Ripper would have found Berner Street and surroundings a place, at that hour of the night at least, that would allow him to satisfy his dark needs to begin with. And those doubts are reinforced by the difference in the initial attack between Stride’s case and the other outdoors cases. There you have it, that’s my stance, although I’m not married to those doubts. I would be perfectly at peace if it ever turned out that Stride was murdered by the Ripper. I just have my doubts.

[DJA]

It is obviously not supposed to be 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

Dutfield's Yard Berner Street - YouTube

We are very,very fortunate to have "richardh"

He is a bit of a hero :-)

It's a work of art. Of course, he appears to have made the rookie mistake of using the later map showing the stairs....so if you're reading Richard, if you could just redo the whole thing using the earlier 1890 Goad map (the pink one above) I'd upgrade you to Total Hero. You know you want to!

[DJA]

Dutfield's Yard Berner Street - YouTube

We are very,very fortunate to have "richardh"

[Joshua Rogan]

Much obliged, Dave

[DJA]