Stride..a victim?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So is Morris Eagle, and of course, Louis.

Mrs Diemschitz corroborated Eagle's return, but not Lave's.

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

Lave probably should have seen Stride and parcel man, but didn't.
There is something not right with Lave's story.

Eorth mentioning that Issac Kozebrdoski is quote as saying he learned of the body at around 12:40 and was sent out alone..."by Diesmshitz or some other member") shortly thereafter. Or, 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrives at the gates.

I touched on that issue in the Spooner thread.

[Michael W Richards]

If youll notice Fanny doesnt say she saw Morris, she recites what she had heard, for example there is no way she would know how dark the passageway was at that time. Yet she says it was "very dark". Good you noticed what Lave missed seeing, including Morris returning to the club.

As for Spooner, he walked with his date from the closed pub on Commercial and stood with his date outside the Beehive for about 25 minutes, thats well within the "about 20 to 1" time he gives and its in agreement with 3 other people, including Issac K. What needs to happen for you to accept that is to let go the idea that Louis went out after 1am with Issac K, and that it was Louis and Issac K Spooner met. It was 2 other Jews. Louis even says it was Issac[s], and everyone assumed he meant Issac K. Not according to Issac himself though, he went out "alone", just after 12:40.

[rjpalmer]

He is a bit of a hero :-)

It's a work of art. Of course, he appears to have made the rookie mistake of using the later map showing the stairs....so if you're reading Richard, if you could just redo the whole thing using the earlier 1890 Goad map (the pink one above) I'd upgrade you to Total Hero. You know you want to!

I suppose it doesn't greatly matter, but what do you make of the paving stones in the video? The inquest refers Stride's body being across a 'carriage-wheel rut,' and I always imagined, perhaps wrongly, of the yard being partially dirt, or broken up stones, and this rut being reasonably deep.

[Joshua Rogan]

I suppose it doesn't greatly matter, but what do you make of the paving stones in the video? The inquest refers Stride's body being across a 'carriage-wheel rut,' and I always imagined, perhaps wrongly, of the yard being partially dirt, or broken up stones, and this rut being reasonably deep.

Hi rj
I think it looks reasonably how I imagined it. It's always been unclear to me if the gutter with the blood running down it to the drain (mentioned by Louis D and Spooner) is the same as the wheel-rut (mentioned by Blackwell), or if they were separate grooves in the yard. I fancy I can just make out slight ruts in the cobbles, though it would be nice to be able to get down to ground level for a better look.

Daily Telegraph 2 Oct
Louis D: "The gutter of the yard is paved with large stones, and the centre with smaller irregular stones."

DT 3 Oct
Spooner: "It was running down the gutter."

Blackwell: "The deceased was lying on her left side obliquely across the passage, her face looking towards the right wall. Her legs were drawn up, her feet close against the wall of the right side of the passage. Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut. Her feet were three yards from the gateway."

If memory serves, Richard used a slightly later photograph (found by Philip Hutchinson) for reference, so I would expect the cobbling texture to be reasonably accurate (at least for when the photo was taken) but he can probably better tell you himself.

[Michael W Richards]

Unfortunately we do not know for sure whether on not there were any means of escape at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. and if there was where was it, and where did it lead to.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What we do know is sort of interesting though. There were unused stables at the back of the yard and an office within the same building, if memory serves the lock to that office had been broken. Might there have been a back way out through that office?

It also worth mentioning while Im here that the police searched that club pretty thoroughly, and all the people that were there. I believe some boots were checked for blood traces. Meaning? At least on that night the authorities believed that the killer likely came from that club. I do too.

[FrankO]

For what it's worth Frank any doubts that I have are location-based too.

Cheers, Herlock!

[FrankO]

That´s as fair an answer as anybody could ask for, Frank.

Thanks, Christer.

As you know, the suspect I have in mind had his mother staying a stone´s throw away from Berner Street, and he would likewise have had his old watering holes in this exact vicinity. And it was a Saturday night.
Of course, that plays a role in my thinking; if we reason that the killer would have needed to be tipsy to go for a kill in Dutfield´s Yard, then what we have is a description of a tipsy man having a physical altercation with Stride some little time before she was killed - and a carman who may have done the rounds in the local pubs. To me, it makes perfect sense, but to anybody who has not seen the light ( ), it could of course be another story.

Looking at things from "your corner", it does make sense and, of course, a tipsy or even drunk Ripper would do the trick and might explain his willingness to strike when & where he did, despite the relative "buzz" around Dutfield's Yard. Even if it wasn't Lechmere.

Thanks, anyway, for your post, it was a refreshing read.

I do my best...

[Herlock Sholmes]

What we do know is sort of interesting though. There were unused stables at the back of the yard and an office within the same building, if memory serves the lock to that office had been broken. Might there have been a back way out through that office?

It also worth mentioning while Im here that the police searched that club pretty thoroughly, and all the people that were there. I believe some boots were checked for blood traces. Meaning? At least on that night the authorities believed that the killer likely came from that club. I do too.

I'm not saying that the killer couldn't have come from within the club Michael but surely the police would have been remiss not to have checked the members as possibles?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not saying that the killer couldn't have come from within the club Michael but surely the police would have been remiss not to have checked the members as possibles?

Agreed Herlock, but there is mention of a very thorough search of the club, backstage area, top and bottom floors...and all the members in attendance were searched. There was no knife discovered, so, it was either hidden or taken from the scene...if its the second, then the killer would have to have left after 1am. Thats the key takeaway. Fanny is at her door from 12:50 until 1 continuously, she only sees Goldstein. Liz is cut roughly around 12:46-12:56 by Blackwell, so...the killer is likely still there when Goldstein passes around 12:50-55. The slim egress window is from 12:46... if thats the cut time.... to 12:50 when Fanny is back at her door. If the cut is closer to 12:56, then he is still there when Goldstein passes and cannot leave unseen until after 1.

If the knife is hidden, the implication is that the man who hides it is still there being part of the leftovers from the meeting.

Let me ask you....IF the killer is Jack the Ripper...(an outside possibility at best, but for the sake of discussion)...and NOT at the club as a guest or member, then why would he stay after he kills? If he has 5 minutes there while Fanny is at her door until 1, then why doesnt he do more to Liz? We know no-one leaves via that passageway from 12:50 until 1am.

Now add this....4 witnesses say that they were by the dying woman, with others including Louis, at around 12:40-12:45. Now....did this killer just slip into the picture, kill Liz, and leave unseen before those men are gathered? We know Liz is seen at 12:35.

I hope youre beginning to see that there is a high degree of likelihood that the killer wasnt seen on the street by anyone including Fanny. So where did he come from? How is it he is on the scene without being seen? Fanny and James Brown see the young couple, Fanny sees Goldestin...thats all the people seen on that street between 12:35 and 1am. Unless of course the 4 witnesses were correct, and the raeson Fanny didnt see 2 running for help and returning with Spooner is because that happened after Fanny lost sight of Liz and went indoors for a few minutes.

Fanny said she was at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:35 until 1, and we know she is there from 12:50 to 1 by virtue of her sighting. She also said if anyone had come out from the club "she must have seen them". We also know Fanny does not see Louis arrive, or even approaching, at 1.

Using that framework its easy to see a killer unseen from the street because he is on club property, and that ist possible that Louis lied about when he arrived. Perfectly understandable, and in keeping with the evidence.

Anarchists would not want to be blamed for "nothing".

[DJA]

I'm not saying that the killer couldn't have come from within the club Michael but surely the police would have been remiss not to have checked the members as possibles?

Stride was hanging around the front door.

As Prosector mentioned,Jack might have scoped the premises the previous week as a visitor.

Meeting was obviously prearranged.

[Fisherman]

Meeting was obviously prearranged.

How is it obvious? The clothing and the cachous and Strides attention to her looks? Or are you thinking of something else?

[Prosector]

I believe that JTR's MO in general was to conduct a thorough recce of the chosen sites days or even weeks in advance and most of them have certain features in common including dim but passable lighting and, I believe, at least two possible exit routes. In the case of Dutfield's Yard one would have been Berner Street itself and the one that I think he used, into the Yard and over the back wall. I think there is no doubt that he was a fit man and capable of that, or of hopping over one or other of the Hanbury Street fences if necessary. Having chosen a site he would then select an opportunistic target and lead them there (except perhaps the last who, I believe, inadvertently let her killer in.

[rjpalmer]

Daily Telegraph 2 Oct
Louis D: "The gutter of the yard is paved with large stones, and the centre with smaller irregular stones."

Thanks, Joshua.

[Michael W Richards]

Stride was hanging around the front door.

As Prosector mentioned,Jack might have scoped the premises the previous week as a visitor.

Meeting was obviously prearranged.

Well, the front door to the street we are told was locked....because of Eagle, and Fanny should have seen Liz if she was hanging about there. So should the young couple. I do think your right about a prearranged meeting of sorts, either for work cleaning the club after the meeting, or to meet someone specific.

[DJA]

How is it obvious? The clothing and the cachous and Strides attention to her looks? Or are you thinking of something else?

Read the context of the post.

She was hanging around the front door.

The cachous were a bonus.
For the umpteenth time ...... they were for her genetic haemorrhagic condition ..... look at her bottom lip ..... check out the amount of blood lost .....