Stride..a victim?

[Joshua Rogan]

Unfortunately we do not know for sure whether on not there were any means of escape at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. and if there was where was it, and where did it lead to.

Not for sure, no. But contemporary maps do give a reasonable idea of the yard and it's surroundings. Which is why I think it's possible for an athletic killer to have made his escape via the single storey roof. Right next to this was a stabl which some reconstructions show with stairs up to the hayloft* above, so it's possible that the roof was accessible from there without even any strenuous climbing. Or not.

* this may have been the loft which Reid mentions searching, and was used for storing sacks.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are no fences that lead directly out of the yard, eg into an alley or street, all the walls back onto at least one other building or enclosed yard*. However, if you were an early exponent of parkour, or a Victorian ninja, then it might be possible to escape across rooftops. I do like the idea of Trevor's tale, but there seems little to be gained going along the taller rooftops visible from Berner Street. The easiest looking escape would probably be onto the one-storey sack factory roof at the end of the yard, then the adjoined stable roof of the London General Omnibus Co., and from there down into Batty Gardens.
Whether that would actually have been feasible, or leave any detectable traces or broken tiles, is up for debate.

*it may have been possible to exit those other yards through buildings, if they were unlocked as at Hanbury Street. Also the LGO yard was another possible exit, though this was gated and probably watched too.

Unfortunately we do not know for sure whether on not there were any means of escape at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. and if there was where was it, and where did it lead to.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

On the subject of Dutfield's Yard. Would it have been possible for the killer to have escaped from within the yard? Over a fence for example. I'm unsure of the layout beyond the yard.

There are no fences that lead directly out of the yard, eg into an alley or street, all the walls back onto at least one other building or enclosed yard*. However, if you were an early exponent of parkour, or a Victorian ninja, then it might be possible to escape across rooftops. I do like the idea of Trevor's tale, but there seems little to be gained going along the taller rooftops visible from Berner Street. The easiest looking escape would probably be onto the one-storey sack factory roof at the end of the yard, then the adjoined stable roof of the London General Omnibus Co., and from there down into Batty Gardens.
Whether that would actually have been feasible, or leave any detectable traces or broken tiles, is up for debate.

*it may have been possible to exit those other yards through buildings, if they were unlocked as at Hanbury Street. Also the LGO yard was another possible exit, though this was gated and probably watched too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

An interesting thought and one which I have covered in my book

On my travels, I was approached by a lady She told me the story that her great, great-grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because if it is believed that if the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore he could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

I have no idea as to the layout as to whether or not this could have taken place as described or not

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Cheers Trevor. Interesting story. We tend to assume that the killer must have left by the gates but if he found himself trapped I wondered if he could have gotten away via the back. This might have been a desperate act and he was lucky to find a way out or might it strengthen Michael's idea that it was a club member who might have known that he could escape that way?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

DI Reid: The door of the loft was found locked on the inside, and it was forced. The loft was searched, but no trace of the murderer could be found.

[Trevor Marriott]

On the subject of Dutfield's Yard. Would it have been possible for the killer to have escaped from within the yard? Over a fence for example. I'm unsure of the layout beyond the yard.

An interesting thought and one which I have covered in my book

On my travels, I was approached by a lady She told me the story that her great, great-grandmother was walking home with several other women the night of the Stride murder in Berner Street, and they heard all the commotion following the discovery of the body. They looked up and saw a male shinning across the rooftops. This is an interesting story because if it is believed that if the killer was disturbed carrying out this murder and therefore he could have made his quick and hasty getaway down to the bottom of Dutfield’s Yard and up and across the rooftops.

I have no idea as to the layout as to whether or not this could have taken place as described or not

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

On the subject of Dutfield's Yard. Would it have been possible for the killer to have escaped from within the yard? Over a fence for example. I'm unsure of the layout beyond the yard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.

Considering Schwartz supposedly saw the man who did this, 'walking as if partially intoxicated', the strength and skill show by the killer is quite astonishing

Or possibly the killer wasn't BS man?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're ignoring people's need to have faith

It's nothing to do with faith. Why don't you get this? You are wilfully ignoring the circumstances and the facts simply because you appear to be obsessed with dismissing suggestions just because they've been around for a long time. 'The old accepted theories' as Trevor calls them. New angles are fine and good but they shouldn't be adopted purely because 'its time for a change.'

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Its an obstacle to any truths that might be uncovered using the interruption idea, Im actually surprised how much traction it still has despite the fact that not one single shred of evidence indicates that what was done to Liz was incomplete. I suppose its the same as people formulating theories based on a foundation given by Israel Schwartz statements, or later on, George Hutchinson's. There isnt any proof that either of their stories were actual events witnessed.

Maybe if people would start using the evidence as it exists for each case....just like real detectives would do, and refrain from starting with a conclusion of Five murders by one man, then there wouldnt be such opposition to posts that explore other possibilities...based, again, on the actual evidence..not just some unsubstantiated hearsay

I'll take the risk of sounding like a broken record Michael but you're asking for something that wouldn't necessarily exist. If Stride's killer was interrupted after he'd cut her throat then there wouldn't be any evidence pointing to an intention to mutilate. A raised skirt has been mentioned but this wouldn't have occurred if the interruption occurred just after or concurrently with the throat-cutting.

The 'evidence'' tells us that this was a period in time where a series of murders were occurring. These took place over a period of just over 2 months (7 if you include Tabram) within a small geographical area. The victims were women who were either full or part-time prostitutes who had their throats cut and were mutilated. Tabram is included by many and yet she wasn't mutilated but the killer spent time stabbing her 39 times. Why isn't she categorically eliminated? Because we accept the possibility that this might have been the killers first time which might explain the difference. So if we have Stride, a known prostitute (yes I realised that she worked too) murdered within the series why is it less valid to ask if there might also have been a reason, like Tabram, for the lack of mutilation?

Now if Stride had been discovered in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street with no mutilations then the case for interruption would be considerably weakened of course (although still not dismiss able) But with Stride we have Diemschutz and his cart at the right spot at the right time to potentially account for interruption.

I think that any police investigation today, unless they discovered some medical or forensic evidence, would have to consider it very possible or likely that Stride was killed by the man that killed Nichols and Chapman. There are no definite's and it's entirely possible that this wasn't a ripper killing but we can't be certain either way but the circumstances lead us to that belief.

[DJA]

Isn't the clot found in her heart (in addition to the condition of the heart) typical to victims of an arresting of the heart? In this case, the most likely explanation being strangulation.

Post mortem report: The heart was small, the left ventricle firmly contracted, and the right slightly so. There was no clot in the pulmonary artery, but the right ventricle was full of dark clot. The left was firmly contracted as to be absolutely empty.

The bruise indicates the carotid artery to the left of the sternoclavicular joint was "manipulated",so yep!

[Robert St Devil]

Another factor that will limit any spray is if her heart had stopped beating by the time the knife was applied

Isn't the clot found in her heart (in addition to the condition of the heart) typical to victims of an arresting of the heart? In this case, the most likely explanation being strangulation.

Post mortem report: The heart was small, the left ventricle firmly contracted, and the right slightly so. There was no clot in the pulmonary artery, but the right ventricle was full of dark clot. The left was firmly contracted as to be absolutely empty.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Its an obstacle to any truths that might be uncovered using the interruption idea, Im actually surprised how much traction it still has despite the fact that not one single shred of evidence indicates that what was done to Liz was incomplete. I suppose its the same as people formulating theories based on a foundation given by Israel Schwartz statements, or later on, George Hutchinson's. There isnt any proof that either of their stories were actual events witnessed.

Maybe if people would start using the evidence as it exists for each case....just like real detectives would do, and refrain from starting with a conclusion of Five murders by one man, then there wouldnt be such opposition to posts that explore other possibilities...based, again, on the actual evidence..not just some unsubstantiated hearsay.

Stride is killed in a passageway owned by the Club, with club members on the premises, no-one seen on the street from 12:35 until 12:55 other than a young couple and Leon Goldstein, and her single wound indicates her killer intended to harm her mortally.

Based on that, you have a simple murder likely committed by a man at that club. No need to try and explain how he came in from the street and left before being seen by nyone, how he was interrupted despite the lack of evidence for any such conclusion, and why she isnt ripped in any sense of that word. The very word which his nickname contains. The critical differentiating detail for any comparative murders.

You're ignoring people's need to have faith

[DJA]

Yep,the printing office was in line with and immediately behind the club,as any map will show.

[Michael W Richards]

The yard and the club were completely different identities.

"In 1885, radicals close to Winchevsky acquired a three-storey property at 40 Berner Street, St George-in-the-east and set up the International Working Men's Educational Club.In 1886, the club took over the publication of Yiddish newspaper Der Arbeter Fraint ('Worker's Friend') and set up a printing office at the rear in Dutfield's Yard; the editor was Philip Krantz and William West was overseer of the printing, as well as secretary of the club itself."

Were they now? Hmm