Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just for those that want to continually argue about facts with me, I am taking some time away from this. There has to be better hobbies than arguing whether the Earth is flat or not. Ill find one. So a non-reply is because I didnt read your insult or question. Have at er...

That's up to you Michael but it appears that you're wedded to your own take on events to the extent that you ignore anything that contradicts it.

Why do you accept as gospel Fanny's comments about being on her doorstep virtually the whole time and yet you ignore the more detailed version of events which contradict this?

Why do you assume that Fanny owned a clock?

Why do you assume that Smith couldn't have been correct in the time that he passed?

Ill ask again....is there a statement by Goldstein saying that he passed at 12.55 (I'm not saying that there isn't but I'd like to know) Because if there isnt then your basically saying " we know that she was on the doorstep at 12.55 because she saw Goldstein at that time and we know that Goldstein passed exactly at that time because Fanny said so."

....

I have no vested interest in any of these timings I'm simply saying that we can't just pick and choose who to believe on no solid grounds. And if what Fanny told the Evening News was her breakdown of events (and why wouldn't it be?) then she's hardly the most trustworthy of witnesses yet you're prepared to turn her into a saint purely to dismiss Schwartz?

Schwartz can be doubted but he cannot be dismissed. The basis for his 'dismissal' often appears to be framed in terms of him not being at the Inquest but as Sugden (hardly a fanciful theorist) says there are numerous reasons why he might not have appeared. One that stands out to me is that he was afraid of repercussions from either BS Man or Pipe Man that he laid low until the Inquest was over?

[rjpalmer]

Blackwell: "The deceased was lying on her left side obliquely across the passage, her face looking towards the right wall. Her legs were drawn up, her feet close against the wall of the right side of the passage. Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut. Her feet were three yards from the gateway."

I swear that this is the last time I'll mention the wheel rut! But Phillips states, in describing Stride:

"there was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head"

"Matted" sounds like a lot of mud and I've always associated this with the wheel rut, since her head was over the top of it. I'm just thinking that Dutfield's Yard might have been in worse repair than the visualizations, the only relevancy being that it might have made it a somewhat less likely spot for an unfortunate to conduct her business.

I'll leave it.

[rjpalmer]

Catechu - Wikipedia

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia

It's an interesting observation.

Some modern theorists have taken Stride's supposed nickname 'Hippy Lip' to mean 'epileptic,' but I agree that the odd appearance of her lower lip in the mortuary photograph raises doubts about this interpretation.

What is somewhat strange is that I insist on writing 'supposed' nickname, because the claim that Stride was known as 'Hippy Lip Annie' seems to spring from an American source--evidently a correspondent for the New York World, and this was then reprinted in several American newspapers the first week of Oct 1888 (The Boston Globe being one of them). I don't believe any of the London papers made this claim, did they? If it appeared in the British press--the Telegraph, the Daily News, the East London Observer, etc. I'm missing it. Does anyone have a local source for this?

In fact, I don't see 'Hippy Lip' making an appearance in the British press until the following month, late November, and even then it is in a highly dubious special report about the Annie Farmer affair that might also have had an American journalist behind it.

If this was indeed Stride's nickname, it seems to have been known to very few people, one of them being an American journalist. Or else he simply made it up, which would also be strange considering the mortuary photograph.

And if her swollen lip was related to the murder, or even a recent injury, you'd think Phillips would have mentioned it.

It's a curious business.

[Michael W Richards]

Just for those that want to continually argue about facts with me, I am taking some time away from this. There has to be better hobbies than arguing whether the Earth is flat or not. Ill find one. So a non-reply is because I didnt read your insult or question. Have at er...

[Michael W Richards]

I don't get this Michael?

First, how did they check their times? We know how Diemschutz checked his.

And secondly, if Fanny was correct in her PC Smith time then Diemschutz would have arrived at precisely the time that she heard the cart.

Those others appear to have been wrong.

Its rare that singular unsubstantiated hearsay from people whose jobs depend on police perceptions of this event are superseding multiple corroborative accounts that came from witnesses who were indoors with clock during the relevant time period...and had no stake at all in how the police saw this event.

Israel story has zero corroboration, neither do Morris and Lave even though they both claimed to be in the same place at the same time, and there is a direct refutation for Louis's so called precise arrival time by 4 witnesses and Fanny at her door until 1. You would think at least that last point would hit home. He lied, or was wrong...yet you choose to believe him, and Israel, over group of corroborated accounts. And people suggest Im the one imagining.

[Michael W Richards]

I just looked on an old thread about the time that Leon Goldstein passed. You may have other info Michael but it appears from what I've read so far that the time of Goldstein's passing is based on Mortimer rather than Mortimer's presence being based on Goldstein. I can't see where Goldstein says "I passed at X o clock."

Aren't you just assuming 12.55 because you believe that she was on her doorstep at that time? Is it written anywhere where Goldstein says specifically what time he passed? If it isn't then Goldstein might have passed at 12.40 or 12.42?

Fanny was in her home, presumably she had a clock to access. Which is why she gives times for events. She also says she was at her door for almost that entire half hour, but we can assume she wasnt at around 12:40-12:45, because she says she heard boots. We know when Goldstein passes she is at her door, she gives that time as being around 12:55-56, again, presumably because she had checked the time while inside. She says she was at her door until just after 1. She does not see or hear any cart, horse or Diemshitz arrive at 1. She hears a cart and horse just after retiring, after 1.

3 of the 4 witnesses that say they were alerted to the body came from inside the club, one estimated that since his return at 12:30 he spent 10 minutes inside before being summoned. All three had access to a clock inside the club, and all 3 give their time of first being aware as 12:40. Spooners story allows for the same approximate time he follows the "2 jews", who are never identified adequately.

This means she didnt see Goldstein at 12:40, remember..she hears boots at around that time. She is inside momentarily. As men are gathering around the body apparently.

This all stems from trying to rework or cast aspersions on Fannys statements, which for me is ridiculous. She gave times and events, and had no reasons to lie or embellish. The fact that she says the boots were a policemans is something she could not have known, nor is whose cart passed by after 11 and which way it was headed. She couldnt have known that for certain. So theres a human nature issue,,,she presumes about what she has heard. Like you and others do.

She doesnt need to presume about what she sees. Or at what time it was.

And that is....nothing but the young couple from 12:35 until 12:55, and only Goldstein at that time. She doesnt see or hear anyone arrive at 1. Like Louis says he did "precisely".

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Louis maybe shouldnt have been so insistent on his timing, and maybe should have consulted at least 4 other people who saw him in the passageway at 12:40-12:45 so they could know he seems to have believed he arrived "precisely" at 1 as well

I don't get this Michael?

First, how did they check their times? We know how Diemschutz checked his.

And secondly, if Fanny was correct in her PC Smith time then Diemschutz would have arrived at precisely the time that she heard the cart.

Those others appear to have been wrong.

[DJA]

I just thought of Monty Python when I wrote that, the "What I merely meant" sketch.

More like ......


Monty Python - Lumberjack Song - YouTube

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Nearly the whole time doesnt mean 10 of 30 minutes in any sane version of events.

So we ignore the inconvenient, more detailed version that she told to the Evening Star?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Thats mostly incorrect Herlock, that last part of scenario 1 isnt even possible because she saw Goldstein at 12:55, and Ive pointed of why using Fannys recorded remarks, she was at her door "nearly the whole time" for that half houir, and from 12:50 to 1 she spent at her door because we have her saying she was there until just after 1. We know she was there because during that period she saw Goldstein

I just looked on an old thread about the time that Leon Goldstein passed. You may have other info Michael but it appears from what I've read so far that the time of Goldstein's passing is based on Mortimer rather than Mortimer's presence being based on Goldstein. I can't see where Goldstein says "I passed at X o clock."

Aren't you just assuming 12.55 because you believe that she was on her doorstep at that time? Is it written anywhere where Goldstein says specifically what time he passed? If it isn't then Goldstein might have passed at 12.40 or 12.42?

[Michael W Richards]

If you stop assuming what Fanny saw...and assuming what she thought she heard was what she heard, then this would be easier. Lets say she heard boots around 12:45 and a cart and horse after 1. Thats perfectly consistent with men going past at 12:40-12:45 to the passageway...4 men stated that was the time they were there,...and perfectly consistent with someone taking the cart and horse for stabling after 1.

Its not a given that 12:45 she heard Smith or that just after 1 she heard Louis...she didnt see the source of either of those sounds.

[Michael W Richards]

But in the Evening News interview she goes into more detail on what she did that night so why do we need to cling to her 'short overview' version? Are we to believe that she spent the evening going in and out like a figures on a mechanical clock?

The 10 minutes or The Vigil as you've called it began, according to what she told the Evening News reporter, at 12.45 but this is called into serious question by Smith who surely has to be considered a far more reliable judge of time?

So for me this is pretty simple.

1) Fanny either stood on her doorstep between 12.45 and 12.55 (if she herself was correct on the time) or from 12.35 until 12.45 (if Smith was correct)

2) Before this time she was inside the house because she heard Smith rather than saw him.

3) After the 10 minute vigil she went back inside the house and was inside the house when Diemschutz passed because she heard him rather than saw him.

Therefore:

Fanny Mortimer spent at best 10 minutes out of 30 on her doorstep. She was wrong about the time that Smith passed which also meant that she was wrong about the gap of time between her going inside and Diemschutz's passing. And also, if Smith was correct (which I'd suggest is likely,) then Fanny was inside her house from 12.45 until after 1.00 when she heard the commotion at the club which meant that she'd have completely missed the Schwartz episode.

To be honest Michael I don't see how the above can be contested.

Thats mostly incorrect Herlock, that last part of scenario 1 isnt even possible because she saw Goldstein at 12:55, and Ive pointed of why using Fannys recorded remarks, she was at her door "nearly the whole time" for that half houir, and from 12:50 to 1 she spent at her door because we have her saying she was there until just after 1. We know she was there because during that period she saw Goldstein.

Diemshitz categorically then doesnt arrive as he says "at precisely 1". Fanny has gone in at 1 and hears a cart and horse, again the assumptions about whose cart and whose horse and which way they were travelling isnt proof of anything. She did not see Louis arriving at 1. Period.

Nearly the whole time doesnt mean 10 of 30 minutes in any sane version of events.

Louis maybe shouldnt have been so insistent on his timing, and maybe should have consulted at least 4 other people who saw him in the passageway at 12:40-12:45 so they could know he seems to have believed he arrived "precisely" at 1 as well.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Herlock,

The mystery is how Fanny heard PC Smith's tread and Diemschutz's arrival while she was inside her house, yet while she was supposedly on the doorstep, watching the world go by [not] for nearly the whole of the remaining time between 12.30 and 1, she saw and heard nothing at all. I do find that rather hard to believe. Don't people normally only emerge from their homes at that time of night if something's going on? If she went out immediately after hearing PC Smith passing by, and found that all was silent as the grave, would she really have hung about outside for more than a couple of minutes?

Love,

Caz
X

Caz. Fanny didnt hear a policemans tread, she heard boots which she believed were policemans. And you insist on propogating an idea that Fanny missed most of what happened in that half hour instead of using her words that describe that half hour and her observances. Nearly the whole time isnt vague. Its almost all.

[caz]

Hi Herlock,

The mystery is how Fanny heard PC Smith's tread and Diemschutz's arrival while she was inside her house, yet while she was supposedly on the doorstep, watching the world go by [not] for nearly the whole of the remaining time between 12.30 and 1, she saw and heard nothing at all. I do find that rather hard to believe. Don't people normally only emerge from their homes at that time of night if something's going on? If she went out immediately after hearing PC Smith passing by, and found that all was silent as the grave, would she really have hung about outside for more than a couple of minutes?

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have her own words Herlock.."nearly the whole time". Why there is a tendency to imagine that she missed large chunks of time is beyond me. She didnt. She was at her door "off and on" for nearly the whole half hour. the last 10 minutes of the hour we can call The Vigil. Its a prolonged time at the door, unlike what she suggests are intermittent visits until that time. She sees nothing, no-one..save the young couple and Goldstein during that time.

I think its a mistake to imagine that she happened to take a prolonged break from the door to allow for Liz, Israel, BSM and Pipeman to suddenly materialize then just as suddenly vanish. I see no possible ulterior motives from Fanny, other than her being able to toss in a few things that bother her about the club, and I do see lots of potential ulterior motives from Louis, Morris, Joseph and Mrs D.

You say above "So she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes only between 12.30 and 1.00.", thats not what Fanny said. She said "nearly the whole time." A few minutes here and there going inside, not 20 minutes without a street view. 1 thing that is undeniable is that if she stayed at her door from 12:50 to 1 and didnt se or hear any cart or horse arriving, Louis was incorrect when he asserted he arrived "precisely" at 1, or he lied.

I believe you and others are interpreting what you think the witnesses meant when they gave their stories, instead of understanding what is actually being said.

Nearly the whole time, precisely, 4 men stating they were by the dying woman with other club members including Louis at 12:40-12:45, deserted street, no-one came out through the gates,.....these are very understandable comments and not needing any "what they really meant" philosophizing.

I just thought of Monty Python when I wrote that, the "What I merely meant" sketch.

But in the Evening News interview she goes into more detail on what she did that night so why do we need to cling to her 'short overview' version? Are we to believe that she spent the evening going in and out like a figures on a mechanical clock?

The 10 minutes or The Vigil as you've called it began, according to what she told the Evening News reporter, at 12.45 but this is called into serious question by Smith who surely has to be considered a far more reliable judge of time?

So for me this is pretty simple.

1) Fanny either stood on her doorstep between 12.45 and 12.55 (if she herself was correct on the time) or from 12.35 until 12.45 (if Smith was correct)

2) Before this time she was inside the house because she heard Smith rather than saw him.

3) After the 10 minute vigil she went back inside the house and was inside the house when Diemschutz passed because she heard him rather than saw him.

Therefore:

Fanny Mortimer spent at best 10 minutes out of 30 on her doorstep. She was wrong about the time that Smith passed which also meant that she was wrong about the gap of time between her going inside and Diemschutz's passing. And also, if Smith was correct (which I'd suggest is likely,) then Fanny was inside her house from 12.45 until after 1.00 when she heard the commotion at the club which meant that she'd have completely missed the Schwartz episode.

To be honest Michael I don't see how the above can be contested.