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Stride..a victim?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Not sure why we have to do a drill down on the obvious, but "nearly the whole time" can be easily interpreted as "off and on", we do have a quote that says off and on somewhere but I dont think we need that when the meaning behind the "nearly the whole time" is synonymous with it. In the second objection you neglect to mention that what you posted was someones synopsis of what Fanny said, not a quote from her.
    Come on Michael they're not synonymous at all. One could mean that she came onto her doorstep at 12.35 and stayed there until 12.55. Whereas the other could mean that she came onto her doorstep at 12.30 went back inside at 12.35 then came out again at 12.42 and went back inside at 12.48 then back out at 12.54 until 1.00.

    And on the second point, just because the reporter didn't put what was said into quotation marks doesn't mean that it wasn't accurate. I'm sure that there are numerous examples of when a reporter wrote something in quotation marks but it wasn't exactly what the person being reported as said.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Are you specifically referring to the 1am issue?
    If yes, where does that leave Diemschitz?
    Gavin suggests Smith entered Berner & Batty streets from Comm. Rd., yet Smith specifically says he went up towards Comm. Rd. after passing Stride & Parcel-man, nothing about coming down Berner.
    Concerning his reference to 1:00 am., he does indicate (Telegraph) that he had completed a 'round' (ie; "having gone round my beat"), he was back at the top end of Berner St. at 1:00am, suggesting he had just embarked on his next Beat heading towards Christian st.
    This might indicate why Smith was not called (by witnesses), he was on Comm. Rd. west of Berner coming from Gower, whereas Eagle & Koz. had run east towards Christian st., had they run west towards Gower they may have met PC Smith.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post


    I'd say that "nearly the whole time" doesn't equate to 'on and off.'

    Plus we have this of course



    Which doesn't make Mrs Mortimer look exactly 100% reliable.
    Not sure why we have to do a drill down on the obvious, but "nearly the whole time" can be easily interpreted as "off and on", we do have a quote that says off and on somewhere but I dont think we need that when the meaning behind the "nearly the whole time" is synonymous with it. In the second objection you neglect to mention that what you posted was someones synopsis of what Fanny said, not a quote from her.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    She did say on and off didnt she? I am well prepared to accept that she was inside when Louis actually arrives, but not that plus Israel plus BSM plus Liz back out on the street again, plus Pipeman....that she missed that arrival AND all those people coming from nowhere to participate in that supposed event Israel, the theatrically dressed friend of Wess's, claims he saw, it just isnt reasonable. She said "nearly the whole time", that means most of that half hour.

    I'd say that "nearly the whole time" doesn't equate to 'on and off.'

    Plus we have this of course

    .
    ...

    Evening News, Oct 1:

    A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.
    Which doesn't make Mrs Mortimer look exactly 100% reliable.

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    I'm aware of that opinion, but Gavin didn't get everything right. Smith's testimony shows where Gavin went wrong.
    Are you specifically referring to the 1am issue?
    If yes, where does that leave Diemschitz?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    This is map 6 from Gavin Bromley's Smith's Beat

    Click image for larger version

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    I'm aware of that opinion, but Gavin didn't get everything right. Smith's testimony shows where Gavin went wrong.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    If she does, could you point out where please?
    "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. "

    Evening News, October 1st.

    How much time do you think had elapsed between that contentious half hour and the time of that interview. How much time elapses before we even hear of Israels Story. This had to be fresh in her mind when she made the remarks.

    Another snippet from that interview.."I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him."

    And..."A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

    Fanny spoke with the young couple after the fact, who also, saw nothing out of the ordinary on a semi deserted street.

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Maybe I need to check again, but I thought he came up Berner St. from Fairclough St., not down from Commercial Rd.

    Just checked....
    Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street].

    He doesn't say precisely. Yet here we read:

    When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road. In the centre of Berner-street were some courts which led into Backchurch-lane.

    Thats the line that made me think he turned into Berner St. from Fairclough.
    This is map 6 from Gavin Bromley's Smith's Beat

    Click image for larger version

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Views:	201
Size:	82.0 KB
ID:	747521

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Yes, but I think that was after he passed up Berner St., he had already passed the couple standing outside the club.
    You're quite right, Jon. The Times of 6 October says he went up Berner Street after seeing the couple:
    "When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road."

    All the best,
    Frank



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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    He may have seen or heard a clock at some point. But if h​​​​is beat took 25-30 mins and he was last in Berner Street at 12:30 or 12:35, then, to me it suggests he was back at Berner Street at around 01:00 after completing one whole circuit of his beat.
    You can not rely on the beat times as being accurate if a beat time took 30 mins without stopping from point A-B then on the next pass it may have taken 40mins if the officer in some way stopped for some reason to speak to someone or to. Check property or if he didn’t do all that he is supposed to have done it might have been less than 30mins

    researchers keep falling into the trap of wanting to tie these beats down to the specific times these beats were set

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    The clock I am assuming he saw was the same clock seen by Deimschutz, at the top on Comm. Rd.?
    Last edited by Wickerman; 12-04-2020, 12:15 AM.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Yes, but I think that was after he passed up Berner St., he had already passed the couple standing outside the club.

    This tends to suggest he was able to give a time at that point because there was a clock at that location.
    He may have seen or heard a clock at some point. But if h​​​​is beat took 25-30 mins and he was last in Berner Street at 12:30 or 12:35, then, to me it suggests he was back at Berner Street at around 01:00 after completing one whole circuit of his beat.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    He does according to the Telegraph, Jon;

    "I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock."
    Yes, but I think that was after he passed up Berner St., he had already passed the couple standing outside the club.

    This tends to suggest he was able to give a time at that point because there was a clock at that location.
    Last edited by Wickerman; 12-03-2020, 10:40 PM.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    He does according to the Telegraph, Jon;

    "I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock."

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    If he were at the top of Berner street when the clock said 1, what time would it be when he arrives at Dutfield's Yard, if he walks at beat pace?

    Would it take about 2 minutes? So if the clock had been about to tick over to 1:01, he arrives at 1:03.
    Maybe I need to check again, but I thought he came up Berner St. from Fairclough St., not down from Commercial Rd.

    Just checked....
    Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street].

    He doesn't say precisely. Yet here we read:

    When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road. In the centre of Berner-street were some courts which led into Backchurch-lane.

    Thats the line that made me think he turned into Berner St. from Fairclough.

    Last edited by Wickerman; 12-03-2020, 10:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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