Seaside Home?

[Monty]

No, Monty, I'm the one who should apologize for that snarky response. Sorry about that.

Wolf.

Don't worry about it Wolf, we all have duff days like that. God knows I do, as my initial response to you highlights.

Thanks for the reply, apreciated.

Monty

[Monty]

But were not the beats reversed on that night I seem to recall or is the picture showing the beats on the night of the murder.

Robs diagram shows the beats as was on the night. As Dave states, they were reversed. And night beats were shortened, which is why there were more Bobbies on night shift than day shift.

Watkins says they were changed to a left handed beat that night.

Monty

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello Neil. Dissertation perhaps?

Sounds interesting and I do try to keep an open mind.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reversed

Hello (again) Neil. Can you refresh me on why they were reversed? I think there was a thread on this a while back--just forgot. Old age.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

St James' Passage

This is my understanding of the beats of Watkins and Harvey.

I never realised before that no-one patrolled St James' Passage.

Regards, Bridewell

[lynn cates]

argument

Hello Bridewell. Which adds force to the argument that Kate's attacker exited through there.

Cheer.
LC

[Bridewell]

2 - 3 minutes

Hello Dave.

"I've always wondered about the shortness of the time interval between Harveys alleged momentary appearance at Mitre Square and Watkins discovery of the body."

Well, looks like a 2-3 minute interval. Best estimate for Harvey was about 1.42. Watkins looks like 1.44 or 5.

Not too wide.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Kill someone, lay them down, disembowel them, detach a 2' length of intestine, extract a kidney, carve her face about and nick her eyelids, make good your escape, all in near total darkness. 2 - 3 minutes? Not enough time surely? If that's the case, JtR has to have been at work in Mitre Square while Harvey was walking down Church Passage. Either that or Harvey wasn't there. Did JtR observe the police and identify who the skivers were?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Hello (again) Neil. Can you refresh me on why they were reversed? I think there was a thread on this a while back--just forgot. Old age.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Every so often the Beat Sergeant or Inspector ordered the reversing of the beats. This to catch out potential criminals who may have studied the beats over the past few nights so they could plan their crimes.

The order would be given at muster, just prior to the PCs being marched onto their beats.

Hi Bridewell,

Watkins indicated that on occaisions he did exit via St James passage. I suspect, like Harvey down Church Passage, he either wandered down it or viewed along it when circling both Mitre Square and St James passage.

One interesting titbit of info, Mitre Square was on a young PC Donald Rumbelows beat back in the 60s I believe.

Monty

[Cogidubnus]

Rounding the Squares...

I never realised before that no-one patrolled St James' Passage.

But it was pretty well sandwiched by two adjacent legs of PC Watkins' beat - do we have anywhere time estimates for his appearance at either end? Assuming his total beat was 14 minutes (that was the time I seem to recall) on a left-hand beat Mitre Square to St James Square is only going to be about four or five minutes...

Mind you...once Watkins is past St James' Square - yes ok - point taken...

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Kill someone, lay them down, disembowel them, detach a 2' length of intestine, extract a kidney, carve her face about and nick her eyelids, make good your escape, all in near total darkness. 2 - 3 minutes? Not enough time surely? If that's the case, JtR has to have been at work in Mitre Square while Harvey was walking down Church Passage. Either that or Harvey wasn't there. Did JtR observe the police and identify who the skivers were?

Hi Bridewell...I totally agree...trouble is, as you yourself point out, St James's Passage is generally left uncovered (not always as Monty points out, but at least some of the time)...unless it can be proved Mitre Square was a sting that night, I'm afraid there's a hole in the theory....

Dave

[Trevor Marriott]

Robs diagram shows the beats as was on the night. As Dave states, they were reversed. And night beats were shortened, which is why there were more Bobbies on night shift than day shift.

Watkins says they were changed to a left handed beat that night.

Monty

Monty

I beleive there is an ambiguitiy with regards to Watkins beat on that night in the official reports he states "I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from.

What I would say he is referring to is his regular beat and this is what the map Rob House has posted shows which I questioned. However as is known the beat was reversed that night so his direction of travel would have surely been the opposite way.

He was never asked if that was the route he took that night so there has to be a concern. This may only be a minor matter but in the grand scheme of thing could be significant.

[Scott Nelson]

What a crazy thread.

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Bridewell. Well, the mutilations are supposed to have run from 5-7 minutes. The attacker was likely finishing up whilst Harvey was in Church Passage. Watkins then came and found the body.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

frequency

Hello Neil. Thanks for that. Do you know how frequently that occurred? Also, was the idea promoted at the upper levels?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Monty

I beleive there is an ambiguitiy with regards to Watkins beat on that night in the official reports he states "I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from.

What I would say he is referring to is his regular beat and this is what the map Rob House has posted shows which I questioned. However as is known the beat was reversed that night so his direction of travel would have surely been the opposite way.

He was never asked if that was the route he took that night so there has to be a concern. This may only be a minor matter but in the grand scheme of thing could be significant.

Trevor,

I really do not understand your point here. His regular beat is still the same reversed or not. It seems he worked that beat for a number of years.

Rob is showing the direction of travel Watkins (and Harvey) took that night upon their beats. Watkins states it was left handed beat, meaning the majority of turns were to the left.

As Im sure you are aware, all beats are numbered (this one being 11 or 12 - I cant recall exact) for reference. Watkins lists his beat from starting point (Duke Street) and back, this is what you quote him as stating above. This is taken from the inquest and is Watkins explaining the exact order of his beat that night.


Theres no amibuigty, it is all straightforward.

Monty