The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[moonbegger]

Hello Niko ,
Greetings from a fellow East Ender . The thing about this whole Knife malarkey is that there really is no evidence to trace it back to any further than when you first unearthed it .. apart from maybe getting it roughly dated , which in its self would prove nothing apart from the fact that it is an old knife . The very fact that it was buried and had possible trace blood on it , tells me that it was possibly used to cause someone an injury .. Not necessarily Death , and not necessarily back in 1888 . Growing up in shoreditch mid 60's .. End of the Kray era , Big Knife's were king , and the bigger the knife , the bigger the respect . My guess is the Knife you have was used in a fight , then buried out of fear of arrest .. baring in mind back in 1888 there would have been no real need to bury a knife because there was no fingerprinting technology to link it to anyone anyway .
best of luck with it all the same .


cheers .
moonbegger .

"The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree"

[Rixa]

Hello niko,

I've read this thread on occasion and I'm still not sure why you think this could be Coram's knife. It may or may not be very similar to it, and if there was someone in London hiding these knives complete with handkerchiefs tied around them, I'm sure there was a fascinating story behind it. But didn't Coram's knife end up with the police? I don't know how they stored evidence back then, but surely not by burying it under railway arches - unless your last bit is suggesting that Warren as an archaeologist would actually do just that. Did I miss your theory on how it got there?

[niko]

Knife one "cubit" long.

Hi everyone, I have just been reading a little about Sir Charles Warren, it said he was an archaeologist searching and digging at the Temple of the Rock in Jerusalem in 1867, I wonder what he was really searching for, the holy grail maybe,lol.

He also wrote about the Knight's Templers and the ancient biblical measurment the "cubit". What I really wanted to mention on this post is that the knife I have and belive to be the same knife that Thomas Coram found in 1888, it's measurment in old biblical "cubit's" is exactly "one cubit" the length from the elbow to the tip of the index finger.

So the knife is "one cubit long". This makes me think..... as my intuition has alway's been that the Whitechapel murder's were some sort of ritual murder's, but remember this is just my opinion, all the best,agur.

Niko.

[niko]

What are you talking about? What 70's/80's person buried a knife "looking like it was there for 100 years". I didn't say that THE KNIFE you found was the evidence the police were looking for. You ASSUME it was. There's no fact to support that. You have absolutely NO idea what the police were in fact looking for, you've just decided that it was this knife. You ASSUME it was intentionally buried by a person. It could have been dropped there, and buried by years of accumulated debris. You ASSUME it was used in a crime. There is absolutely no evidence of ANY of that. There is no evidence whatsoever, saying that that knife was ever intentionally buried, that it was ever used in a crime or that it was in fact what the police were looking for. They could have been looking for a stray bullet. A pair of "brass" knuckles. A set of keys that could tie a murderer to his victim.

You have made up a fantasy in your head about the history of this knife, but you do not have a single shred of evidence to support any of it.

Your right Ally, I hav'nt got a shred of evidence, the only person I can convince is myself because I know every thing I've said is true about the knife, everthing that I am saying is the truth, although it seem's that I'm fantasising, I supose I am fantasising a bit or hypothesising but what else can I do, I have no evidence. I believe the condition's in which the knife was in when I found it, is the same as the discription given in 1888.

OK let's supose there's hundred's of late 1800's early 1900's Sabatier cook's knives burried all over the East End, how many would have their cutting edge blunted and a rotten cloth (which could be easly a hankerchief) wrapped round the handle and secured with a thin string, personally I think this a strange way to bury any sort of knife, and what do you say about the three notches carved onto the side of the knife's wooden handle ?

Ally you mentioned that knife could of been dropped there and covered up over the year's, I find this opinon, how could I say, "fantasising" no hypothesising yes, the reason I believe it was burried and not droped as you say, as looking up the little I could in the local libary about the mentioned arch it has had different trades occupying the mentioned arch over the year's.

The garage (arch) floor was even and smooth, no cement nor concrete, just oil, grease and sawdust mixed with grit and soil, the knife was burried about five finger's deep (10cm to 15cm) I mentioned in an earlier post 25cm deep but I made a mistake. Like I said before, Eddie the propitor of the arch at the time when the police searched it, he was how can I say "tight" he was known not to like to depart with his money but who does, anyway it suprised me and a friend that a few day's after the police searched the arch with metal detector's Eddie bought a brand "new" metal detector (I remember Eddie would repair the car's with second-hand part's) which he used to search the arch floor himself "I wittnessed this with my own eyes without Eddie seeing me".

Let's think of the knife I have, it's no 1920's,30s,40s,50s, it's a late 1800's early 1900's Sabatier french cook's knife, for God's sake does no one find this knife suspicious !! all the best, agur.

niko

[Bridewell]

I Agree

What are you talking about? What 70's/80's person buried a knife "looking like it was there for 100 years". I didn't say that THE KNIFE you found was the evidence the police were looking for. You ASSUME it was. There's no fact to support that. You have absolutely NO idea what the police were in fact looking for, you've just decided that it was this knife. You ASSUME it was intentionally buried by a person. It could have been dropped there, and buried by years of accumulated debris. You ASSUME it was used in a crime. There is absolutely no evidence of ANY of that. There is no evidence whatsoever, saying that that knife was ever intentionally buried, that it was ever used in a crime or that it was in fact what the police were looking for. They could have been looking for a stray bullet. A pair of "brass" knuckles. A set of keys that could tie a murderer to his victim.

You have made up a fantasy in your head about the history of this knife, but you do not have a single shred of evidence to support any of it.

Firm, but fair.

Niko,

You found an old knife, but there is nothing whatever to link it to any crime or to any particular individual. Unless you find some [I]evidence[I] (as opposed to conjecture) to support your claims for it, it remains what it is - an old knife.
I wish you luck with your research.

Best Wishes, Bridewell

[lynn cates]

discuss

Hello Niko. In that case why not talk to some members of the local synagogue? Check for legends, rumours, etc.

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

Hi Ally and thank's for your comments, your totally right it's opinoin.
My opinion is that if you use metal detector's it's because you are searching something that is underground, another opinoin is that how did someone in the 70's or early 80's let's say, bury a more than a hundred year old french cook's knife because he has commited a crime and then when I unburry the knife it has the apperance as if it's been burried over a hundred year's, oh yeah! two year's earlier the police search the arch with metal detectors !!

What are you talking about? What 70's/80's person buried a knife "looking like it was there for 100 years". I didn't say that THE KNIFE you found was the evidence the police were looking for. You ASSUME it was. There's no fact to support that. You have absolutely NO idea what the police were in fact looking for, you've just decided that it was this knife. You ASSUME it was intentionally buried by a person. It could have been dropped there, and buried by years of accumulated debris. You ASSUME it was used in a crime. There is absolutely no evidence of ANY of that. There is no evidence whatsoever, saying that that knife was ever intentionally buried, that it was ever used in a crime or that it was in fact what the police were looking for. They could have been looking for a stray bullet. A pair of "brass" knuckles. A set of keys that could tie a murderer to his victim.

You have made up a fantasy in your head about the history of this knife, but you do not have a single shred of evidence to support any of it.

[niko]

the teacher, the cab driver and the policeman.

Hi Ally and thank's for your comments, your totally right it's opinoin.
My opinion is that if you use metal detector's it's because you are searching something that is underground, another opinoin is that how did someone in the 70's or early 80's let's say, bury a more than a hundred year old french cook's knife because he has commited a crime and then when I unburry the knife it has the apperance as if it's been burried over a hundred year's, oh yeah! two year's earlier the police search the arch with metal detectors !!

Lynn I am a crap researcher or investigator, I'm a good Bricky (builder) though !! I think my research has come to the end of it's limit's, I would truly love to know what at least four policemen were searching for in the arch.

The following I would call fact, as it happened to me and I'm not lying.

Now listen to this !! there was a female teacher at my secondary school, an English teacher she was, her husband was a London taxi driver and by coinsidence he rented a cab from my bosses fleet of cab's. the teacher's brother, the cab driver's brother in law was a policeman at Leman Street police station, his beat was in my area "Shadwell". This policeman ocassionally poped into the garage (arch) for a cup of coffee that my boss offered him. I remember once my boss commenting about this policman, he said " that copper look's thick, every time he comes in for a coffee he stares at the brick work of the arch wall, (garage wall it's the same) as if his lost something".

It was in my last year of secondary school and after school hour's and Saturday's I would work in the Taxi garage, this teacher knew that I worked in the same Taxi garage that her husband rented a cab from, (here comes the funny bit so don't fall off your chair) once she asked me the following "Nicholas, that garage that you work at, has anything strange been found there" like what I replied "scissors or a knife" she answered "NO, not that I know of" I replied.

This is the first time I mention this about the teacher on the forum, it sounds ridiculos and unbelievable but it's the truth. I hate the feeling I get when forum member's think I'm making it all up as I go along. Just think for one minute !! how I feel making a proper dick-head of miself !! BUT I'm still here !! that's because I honestly think I have the Coram knife and that I'm on something but don't know exactly what, by the way, the teacher, the cab driver and the policeman were all Jewish, I wish I had half the talent in researching that some member's have on this forum, all the best, agur.

niko

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Niko. Thanks. But do keep investigating.

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

Fact: A "fact methinks" is called an opinion.

Fact: The idea that modern day policemen would be searching for a knife that went missing from evidence in a case over a hundred years old is beyond unlikely.

Fact: The policemen searching with the metal detectors didn't say they were looking for a knife.

Fact: Even if the police had said they were "investigating a murder" doesn't mean they were investigating a murder, they could have just been poking fun at the nosy kid.

Fact: If they were in fact (hah) wasting valuable man hours searching for the Coram knife, they wouldn't in fact be investigating a murder, they'd be searching for lost evidence from a long dead and not possibly solvable case. Not the same thing. And when phrased like that not likely is it?

Fact: The policemen searching with the metal detectors didn't say that they were looking for evidence from a murder that had happened there.

Fact: The police could have been looking for evidence that a suspect from a crime ten towns away said that he'd tossed somewhere in that vicinity as he'd fled.

Fact: That evidence could have been any thing.

Fact: The idea that you found a knife from a case over a hundred years ago is wishful thinking.

Fact: Even if it were the knife, it's irrelevant as you will never be able to prove it.

[niko]

Fact's and doubt's

Hi every one, when I talked with the late Maggie Bird, which was very helpful to me, she confirmed to me that the knife Thomas Coram found had been in the possession of the police (probably at Scotland yard) for some year's untill it went missing, missing like a lot of evidence related to the Whitechapel murder's "souvenir hunter's probably" she said.
In my eye's there no doubt it was a policeman-men who took the knife, someone out there must know something, something like it was a relative of their's who took the knife in the past !!

Just going over some "facts"

"fact" The Coram knife discribed at the inquest and mentioned in the newspaper's, which had been stored at Scotland yard "exisisted".

"fact" The knife went missing from Scotland yard, probably taken by a policeman-men.

"Fact" I witnessed the police searching with metal-detector's the same railway arch that some year's later I found the knife, wich I am sure is the Coram knife.

"fact" The polceman guarding the entrance to the arch said to me when I asked what was going on "investigating a murder" he said.

"fact" I unburried the knife in the same arch which the police previously had searched with metal-detector's.

"fact" I clearly remember the condition the knife was when I found it.

"fact" Some year's back, I discovered about Thomas Coram and the knife he found whilst reading about Jack the Ripper.

"fact methinks" The knife I found fit's the discription given of the Coram knife.

"fact methinks" No murder had been commited in the area which could involve the mentione railway arch (remember I worked in the same arch for a few year's when It became a London taxi repair garage and I also Lived in the same street where the arch is and I am sure I would of heard of the arch having any invovlement in any murder.

"fact methinks" The only thing that in my opinon that could bring the police to search the mentioned arch with metal-detector's is the "knife" I'm sure someone know's something, thankyou for reading, all the best, agur.

niko

[Ginger]

p.c Joseph Drage claim's that he had helped a horse that fell down to get up. I wonder if this horse was pulling a cart or carriage ?

Could the horse owner of ordered the horse to fall

My belief is that a cart horse was more likely to fall than a carriage horse, simply because he's got a bigger load to break loose, and is more likely to have his feet slip out from under him in consequence as he pushes forward.

Training a horse to fall on pavement just isn't going to happen. Falling in harness is painful, and terribly upsetting to the horse. I've been there when that happened to someone in a parade. You've all you can do to calm them down, and get them to trust their footing again after that, even if they're not actually injured.

I think what the original poster means is that someone took advantage of the confusion when the horse fell to put the knife there.

-Ginger

[niko]

Fallen horse.

Hi everyone, reading about "horse and buggy" on another thread it reminded me about something that always has baffled me, it is the episode where p.c Joseph Drage claim's that he had helped a horse that fell down to get up. I wonder if this horse was pulling a cart or carriage ? to need help I supose the horse was pulling something.I wonder if p.c Drage took the horses owner's name down or asked him what he was doing out, or where he was coming from, "I supose not".

Here goes my imagination again !
Could the horse owner of ordered the horse to fall, this attracting p.c Drage's attention whilst someone else placed the twelve inch bladed knife on the doorstep of Mrs Christmas laundry at 253 Whitechapel road, "I supose not" BUT not impossible.

I found this next article on casebook-

Police Constable Joseph William Drage, 282 H

Witness at Elisabeth Stride's inquest.

P.C Drage had not seen the knife previouesly, dispite having passed the spot continually. A little earlier a horse had fallen nearby and he helped to lift it on to it's feet. He said it was possible that the knife had been deposited at this time. He could not be sure if the knife had been there fifteen minutes previously, but was sure it had not been there an hour before as he had seen the landlady of the premises let a woman out and it would most certainly have been seen then.

I think that there were more horse and cart's circulating late at night at the time of the murder's than we intend to think, all the best, agur.

niko

[niko]

Hello Niko. If I recall properly, Bagster was concerned with the length of knife and small room in which to operate.

Good luck in your endeavour.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, "fairs fair" he said that too ! all the best,agur.

niko

[lynn cates]

rejection

Hello Niko. If I recall properly, Bagster was concerned with the length of knife and small room in which to operate.

Good luck in your endeavour.

Cheers.
LC