The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[niko]

Hello Niko. Quite right.

Why do you think the Coram knife was not Bagster's choice? What was the problem with it?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, from what I've read in different places on why Dr. Phillips thought the Coram knife was'nt the murder weapon are for example - "he would not of chose such a cumbersome weapon to commit the crimes" and also that "the tip of the knife was blunt or rounded off" and ofcourse "the blade edge was blunt and turned" BUT ! he also say's that the Coram knife "could of inflicted the wound's to the victim's" OR did he not say this ?

Lynn my priorority is to prove that the knife I possess is the knife that Thomas Coram found along the Whitechapel Road in 1888 and not proving it's the Ripper's weapon ! all the best,agur.

niko

[lynn cates]

getting the point

Hello Niko. Quite right.

Why do you think the Coram knife was not Bagster's choice? What was the problem with it?

Cheers.
LC

[niko]

Hi Mike, my name is Niko, agur mean's "bye" in Basque je,je it will very interesting to read about the "rusty knife" thankyou, I've always read that the knife Thomas Coram found was covered in blood, I supose it could of been rusty. The knife I have I think is the knife Coram found in 1888, I know that the police think and thought that the Coram knife was not the murder weapon but what makes them so sure ! But what I'm trying to prove is that I think I have the Corom knife.

This is a bit from Strides inquest regarding if the Coram knife could have been the murder weapon-

The Coroner- Is it such as knife as could have caused the injuries which were inflicted upon the deceased ?

Dr. Phillips- Such a knife could have produced the incisions and injuries to the neck, but is not such a weapon as I should have fixed upon a causing the injuries in this case.

So Dr. Phillips said it "could" of been the murder weapon but was not of his choice, all the best, agur.

niko

[The Good Michael]

I supose Karen's translation of the paragraph is correct, if so, the article discribes a long sharp carving knife with a black hilt. This last mentioned is what interests me "the same discription as the knife I found".

Agur,

If i remember correctly, the knife you are talking about was covered in rust and was ruled out as a possible murder weapon. In fact, it was said something like in now way could this have been the weapon. I'm not talking about the one in your possession. I'm referring to teh one you mentioned.

If I can find where I read this, I'll post it for you.

Mike

[niko]

Java-Bode 17 Nov 1888.

Hi Mike, I gathered that Karen Trenouth was not very popular. I find interesting the article written in the Java-Bode, I have found the Java-Bode printed on the 17 Nov 1888, the paragraph in question is in Dutch (I think). The only thing I understand in the paragraph is "253 Whitechapel and sharp" the rest is all Dutch to me. I supose Karen's translation of the paragraph is correct, if so, the article discribes a long sharp carving knife with a black hilt. This last mentioned is what interests me "the same discription as the knife I found".

Another quote that I'm interested in is that Reid thought that the Ripper's knife was a blunt one ! remember the knife I found was blunt too and Dr. Phillips also mentions that the knife Thomas Coram found was also "blunt".

I'm not exactly sure what Karen Trenouth's theory is, but I personally believe that the Whitechapel murder's were executed in some sort of ritual way, I'm probably wrong but that's my opinion, all the best, agur.

niko

[The Good Michael]

Niko,

Trenouth had some... interesting ideas. Those combined with taking whole chunks of information from this website, enabled her to have enough material to create a couple of books. There is no one on this site that agrees with her premise regarding JTR and a Masonic plot. It makes it difficult to accept any other information from her. The Eddleton book is a nice compendium of stuff, however flawed any conclusions are with regards to suspectology.

Mike

[niko]

Any reason for thought !

Hi everyone, I came across this information, the source is - Jack the Ripper, an encyclopedia, John J. Eddleton -

Reid, Inspector Edmound
John James.

"After Abberline had been transfered to A division, Reid replaced him as head of the CID in H division"

More evidence of Reid's reliability, or lack therfore, maybe gathered from the fact that he believed there were nine Ripper murder's, that no part of any of the bodies was ever taken away, and that the Ripper's knife was a blunt one.

When Reid said "the Ripper's knife was blunt" what was he referring to ?
Is it really a fact that Reid believed that there were nine ripper victim's and that the Ripper's knife was "blunt".

One more thing is a press report I found on a page written by Karen Trenouth, I think she once was a member of this forum, anyway! the newspaper report is what interests me, the source is - Java-Bode, Zaterday 17 Nov 1888, Zeven-en-Dertigste Jaar Gang from abroad.

They are also believed to have laid hand's on the knife which the murder's were committed. It was a large carving knife with a long and very sharp blade and a black wooden hilt. It was also full of clotted blood and with a bloody hankerchief which was found in the house at No. 253 in Whitechapel Road.

I wounder how much truth is written in this paragraph of the Java-Bode. When I worked in Bilbao Airport and read International newspaper's, I was surprised to learn how acurrate was there news-reports regarding to the actuall news in Spain. I am a believer that most countries "censor" their National newspaper's, thank's for reading all the best, agur.

niko

[niko]

Christmas

Hi and a happy new year to you too! Bridewell.
It's an interesting theory but why, if the aim was to frighten the occupants of No.254, would he leave the knife on the doorstep of the house next door, with the consequent risk that the intended target would never get to hear of it? (There is, of course, no proof that the knife was used in the Eddowes murder). 254, Whitechapel Road is a fair way from Mitre Square (the best part of half a mile I would have thought). Why take the risk of carrying a murder weapon all that way?

He could of left the knife at 253 Whitechapel Road for many reason's (I think Jack the Ripper related).

1) Maybe Jack didn't know the exact door, or didn't recognize the door in the darkness of the night.

2) He made the mistake intentionally, knowing that the message would get to 254 Whitechapel Road.

3) Or was it intentionally placed at 254 Whitechapel Road to warn the Christmas family.

I have looked up a little on the name "Christmas". It's origin's are Anglo-Saxon, I think. Christmas was given to people as a byname, for those who were born on Christmas.


I remember once at the age of about 15-16, I was riding my push-bike around Whitechapel. When I saw a man in around his seventies, standing infront of a shop along the Whitechapel Road. The shop-shutter was up, in the door way there was untold letter's on the floor, you could tell that the shop had been closed since a long time.

The man standing infront of the shop was about seventy and was wearing a brown sheepskin coat, he had a bundle of letter's in his hand's (I know this sound's stupid, but he seemed to be "Jewish"). I shouted out to him " halo guv, you opening for Christmas" the man looked at me and laughed. The reason I asked him if he was opening for Christmas was because you could not help noticeing the large shop-sign, which was placed along the top of the shop-front, which said "CHRISTMAS", so I said it for a laugh. If I knew then what I know now, I'm sure I would of asked him some question's regarding the background related to the shop.

Forgive me Bridewell and the rest of the casebook member's, for being so persistante, but I truly believe the knife that I possess is the Coram knife and I think I'm on something. (not LSD)

Bridewell you ask "why take risk on carrying a murder weapon all that way" ?

Remember the knife was left on the door-step twenty-four hour's after Eddowes murder, not on the same night. I think Jack took alot of risk's one more wouldn't do no harm I suppose. I also believe Jack felt safe carrying his knife or knives, as if he were sure he wouldn't be stopped and searched or questioned.

Just a thought

I have read somewhere about law's and transporting weapon's and knives, more or less if the man in possession of such item can give a good reason for transporting it for his trade, example a butcher or horse slaughterman it seem's it could of been "LEGAL". On saying this, remember this is just a thought, would a horse slaughterman take his knife and steel hanging from his belt, whilst he went to have a quick pint or cup of tea.

I have some close friend's who are butcher's and I notice that they highly prize their knives and take great care of them, It's logical " It's their bread and butter".

I wonder how "the mad butcher" Jacob Isenchmid transported his knives from job to job ? wrapped in a cloth I suppose, all the best, agur.

niko .

[Bridewell]

Probably Not

Hi and a happy Christmas to you all, just expressing my thought's again, another hypothesis.


OK here comes the hypothesis let's assume that in 1888 John Levy lived and ran a business from 254 Whitechapel Road, next door to nuimber 253, the shirt and collar shop (I alway's thought 253 was a laundry) ran by Norah Christmas, (I suppose Mrs. Christmas was also Jewish). This is the shop where twenty-four hour's after Catherine Eddowes was murdered a knife was found on the doorstep.

WHY WAS THE KNIFE LEFT THERE ?

It could of been left there as a warning, or some kind of message, the same way as the piece of apron was left at Goulston Street. Let's say that when Jack is chatting-up Eddowes and was seen by the three witnesses, Jack recognized them or one of them and related them, for example Joseph Levy. This three men sorry gentleman all lived in the Whitechapel area, so I supose they were loacally known. So Jack recognized them or one of them and related them or him to 254 Whitechapel Road next door to where the knife was found.
Did Jack place the knife there to warn Joseph Levy and yhe other two, to becareful on what they say to the police, as he know's that the three gentlemen saw him with Catherine Eddowes when they left the Imperial club.

I'm getting carried away with my imagination I suppose.

niko

Hi Niko,

It's an interesting theory but why, if the aim was to frighten the occupants of No.254, would he leave the knife on the doorstep of the house next door, with the consequent risk that the intended target would never get to hear of it? (There is, of course, no proof that the knife was used in the Eddowes murder). 254, Whitechapel Road is a fair way from Mitre Square (the best part of half a mile I would have thought). Why take the risk of carrying a murder weapon all that way?

"I suppose Mrs Christmas was also Jewish" Highly improbable I would have thought. I can't think of a less likely surname for a Jewish family. I guess she could be a Jewish lady who married a Gentile, but I think the assumption that she was Jewish is speculative in the extreme.

I'm getting carried away with my imagination I suppose.

Possibly so, but we all do it and, frankly, if we didn't we'd never get anywhere.

Happy New Year, Niko.

[niko]

underneath the arches

Hi and a happy, healthy, peaceful 2012 to everyone. As I have mentioned on previous ocassions, when I found the knife, the blade was turned or bent which ever you prefer. What puzzles me is the following, the finding of the Coram knife in 1888 is discribed in many way's in different newspaper's at the time of the murder's, they mainly discribe the knife as a long bladed knife with a hankerchief wrapped around the handle, both hankerchief and knife were stained with dried blood,

"Now" none of the newspaper's that I haved viewed mention the blade being bent or turned, which to me seem's strange. Before I straightened the blade of the knife the angle of the bent or turn in the blade was at least a thirty-five degree angle. What I want to say with this is that even with bad eye-sight you could see that the blade of the knife was bent. So why did the newspaper reporter's not state that the blade was bent, dueing to that the knife was exhibited at Strides inquest (or that's at least what I understand) they mention the blood stainded hankerchief and more or less the discription of the knife. I find it strange that they didn't mention the BENT or TURNED blade, (could it of been due to the hankerchief being wrapped around the handle and blade preventing the bent blade to be well viewed).

I found the following article on casebook by Bill Beadle -

Another anomaly was the piece of Eddowes apron which the killer had evidentlly used to wipe his hand's and knife. In no other murder do we detect a garment belonging to the victim having been utilised. Was it pressed into service because his own hankerchief was already saturated in blood and tied onto the handle of the knife ?

We return to Dr. Phillips at Strides inquest for a final pointer. Examining the knife which has been found he declared "It has been recently blunted and the edge TURNED by apparent rubbing on a stone. It evidently was before a very sharp knife"
Which suggests that it's owner, in a temper, had blunted it because it had injured him.

When Dr. Phillips say's "edge TURNED" from this I understand, the cutting edge, which is the blade, "was he saying the blade".
I understand the blade was bent or turned, The knife I found, Like I have stated before, the blade was bent, this is ONE of the reason's I believe the knife I have could be or is the Coram knife.

THE ARCHES.

Just one more thing, a coinsidence I suppose. The railway arch where the Pinchin Street torso was found on the 10 September 1889 is about eighty or a hundred arches up (west) from the railway arch where I found the knife I have.
I had a friend who lived on an estate right infront of the arches in Pinchin Street, he once told me that prostitutes still used the arches which were accsesible, to do their business.
I am also sad to say I remember seeing homeless drunk unfortunates, we use to call them "tramp's" they use to sleep in the empty railway arches, this was in the 1970's. So I truely believe that in 1888 a hell of a lot of homeless people slept "underneath the arches", remember the song ! all the best, agur.

niko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZbFn7wQYBE

[niko]

Why at 253 Whitechapel Road ?

Hi and a happy Christmas to you all, just expressing my thought's again, another hypothesis. Here is an article I read.

Evening News
London U.K
9 October

In Deeke (sic) Street, opposite Mitre Square, there is a club called The Imperial, the member's of which are exclusively Jews. On the Sunday morning of the murder, between 1.30 and 1.40 three of the member's named respectively Joseph Levy, butcher, 1 middlesex Street, Aldgate Joseph Levander, commercial taveller in or manufacturer of cigarettes, whose business premises are in St Mary's Axe, corner of Bury Street, and Mr. Henry Harris, furniture dealer of Castle Street Whitechapel, left the club. They noticed a couple - man and woman - standing by the iron post of the small passage that leads to Mitre Square.
They had no doubt themselves that this was the murdered woman and her murderer. And on the first blush of it the fact is borne out by the police having taken exclusive care of Mr. Joseph Levander, to a certain extent having sequestrated him and having imposed a a pledge om him of secrecy. They are paying all his expences and one if not two detectives are taking him about. One of the two detectives is Foster.
Mr Henry Harris, of the two gentleman our representive intervied, is the more communicative. He is of the opinion that neither Mr. Levander nor Mr. Levy saw anything more than he did , and that was only the back of the man. Mr. Joseph Levy is obsolutely obsinate and refuses to give us the slightest information. He leaves one to infer that he know's somethig but that is afraid to be called on the inquest. Hence he assumes a knowing air.
The fact remain's, however, that the police, in imposing thir idiotic secrecy have allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent other's from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.


The next article I found on Casebook-

Another of the Levy brother's, John is listed in the 1881 census returned and in 1884 London Buisness Directory as living and running a cigar manufacturing buisness from 254 Whitechapel Road (about half a mile from Mitre Square). Nextdoor at 253, was a Mrs. Norah Christmas, who ran a shirt and collar shop. On her doorstep at about 12.30 am on October the 1st 1888, the day following Eddowes murder a man named Thomas Coram found a knife with the handle wrapped in a blood stained hankerchief. (The postal directories for 1888-9 list 252,253, and 254 as neighbour's on the south side of the Whitechapel Road.

Hmmm inertesting !


OK here comes the hypothesis let's asume that in 1888 John Levy lived and ran a buisness from 254 Whitechapel Road, next door to nuimber 253, the shirt and collar shop (I alway's thought 253 was a laundry) ran by Norah Christmas, (I supose Mrs. Christmas was also Jewish). This is the shop where twenty-four hour's after Catherine Eddowes was murdered a knife was found on the doorstep.

WHY WAS THE KNIFE LEFT THERE ?

It could of been left there as a warning, or some kind of message, the same way as the piece of apron was left at Goulston Street. Let's say that when Jack is chatting-up Eddowes and was seen by the three witnesses, Jack recognized them or one of them and related them, for example Joseph Levy. This three men sorry gentleman all lived in the Whitechapel area, so I supose they were loacally known. So Jack recognized them or one of them and related them or him to 254 Whitechapel Road next door to where the knife was found.
Did Jack place the knife there to warn Joseph Levy and yhe other two, to becareful on what they say to the police, as he know's that the three gentlemen saw him with Catherine Eddowes when they left the Imperial club.

I'm getting carried away with my imagination I supose. I must mention again that I think the Coram knife is linked in some way to the Whitechapel murder's, and NOT only as a twelve inch knife that was found along the Whitechapel Road, twenty-four hour's after the murder's and seen upon as only a hoax.

I attach an artist sketch from "The police illustrated news" Saturday October 20, 1888.

Take a good look at the knife the artist has drawn on the door-step, to me it has a slight resemblence to the one I have, although here the artist did not draw the hankerchief wrapped around the handle, all the best, Agur.

niko

[niko]

Hi everyone, on the previous thread No 98 I said the police searched the arch in 1983, I made a mistake the correct year was 1981. That was the same year Eddie inhereted a Victorian house in Bow for his sixtith birthday.

I would like you to imagine the knife as it was when I found it-

All covered in a thick black crust, the strangest thing about the knife was the "bent blade", then imagine the rotton cloth wrapped around the handle and a thin neatly tied string around the base of the handle, another strange thing was that the blade was blunt, as if it's owner had blunted it (useless to cut anything). Well that's the condition in which I found the knife.

Regarding all I have quoted above, I have read simular description's of the Coram knife in book's and here on the inter-net. This give's me reason that this could be the Coram knife, "attention" I am not saying this could be a ripper knife, I am saying it could be the Coram knife.

One thing for sure, the knife must of been dodgy when they burried it, it's obvious who burried the knife was hideing it, or maybe preserveing it, all the best, Agur.

niko

[niko]

Hi Niko (& everyone else who's contributed)

I've found this thread strangely compelling, despite the lack of logic and leaps of faith to which it seems addicted. I'm rather puzzled at your (Niko's) obdurate insistence that the knife is that found by Coram (for which there appears to be no evidence whatsoever) & making rather less of the Kosminski connection. I seem to recall that Martin Fido's book claimed that Cohen was a "John Doe" name used by the authorities for anyone of Jewish origin whose identity was unknown, or whose name they could not pronounce. There was a connection made between Kosminski & Cohen by this means, so the association with "Eddie" is probably, in fact, your strongest argument.

Having said all that, I think you've rather destroyed your own case. If the police searched the archway in 1981 with metal detectors and didn't find anything, the logical conclusion is that the knife wasn't there at that time. The question I would ask is:
What made you start digging under the archway yourself? 25 cm (10 inches) is a considerable depth to get to in what was presumably a compressed earth floor. You were 13 at the time, which is an impressionable age. Is it possible your friend "Eddie" was having a joke at your expense? If, as you say, the police had been looking for a knife at a particular location, it is probably because someone told them that they would find one there. That individual is likely to have been an offender, or someone closely associated with him or her, i.e. someone still alive in the early 1980's. I suspect that the knife you found, if the circumstances are as you claim them to be, may very well have been used in a murder, or some other violent assault, but emphatically not by the person responsible for the Ripper murders of 1888.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't see a case for arguing any connection between this knife and the Whitechapel Murderer. It may be a 19th century knife - , but that doesn't mean it's been buried in the ground since the 19th century.

Hi Bridewell, and thank's for your interest, what make's me think this is the Coram knife, mainly is due to the condition's in which I found the knife. Turned or bent blade, rotten cloth wrapped around the handle which back in the day could of been a hankerchief and the blade was blunt.

When the police searched the arch there was three old car's in the arch, one was an old herce for the Jewish undertaker's buissness which Eddie attended, plus the two old antique car's, they were black and from the 1940's. This two did not belong to Eddie, as many a time I heard him on wishing there removal.

The reason I mention the car's is because I am "almost" certain the knife was burried in the exact place the left front wheel of one of the old car's was situated, this giveing a false metal reading when the metal detector was placed near the wheel. This I think the reason the police did not find the knife.

Why was I and another two mecanic's digging the garage floor ? we had been ordered by the boss, to level the garage floor, the garage floor had a slope (remember the floor never had cement nor concrete laid upon it, this floor could be a hundred year's old and was the same floor where horses and carriage's once stood) whilst removing the slope I dug up the knife.

There is no way anyone could of seen the three notches without removing the cloth. I also belive that the knife I found fit's the many discription's given of the Coram knife in the 1888 press, oh! the two black car's I mentioned seemed to have been stationed in the arch from a long,long, time, remember the car's were from the 1940's, sought of a London taxi cab style.

What I'm trying to say is, that if the knife was burried right under the car wheel the metal detector would of bleeped on picking up the reading of the car wheel, this is the only explanation I have to why the police did not find the knife with metal detector's in 1983.

I also think if the police knew about the knife back in 1983 they must still know about the knife today! all the best, Agur.

niko

[Bridewell]

Why Didn't the Police Find It in 1981?

Hi Niko (& everyone else who's contributed)

I've found this thread strangely compelling, despite the lack of logic and leaps of faith to which it seems addicted. I'm rather puzzled at your (Niko's) obdurate insistence that the knife is that found by Coram (for which there appears to be no evidence whatsoever) & making rather less of the Kosminski connection. I seem to recall that Martin Fido's book claimed that Cohen was a "John Doe" name used by the authorities for anyone of Jewish origin whose identity was unknown, or whose name they could not pronounce. There was a connection made between Kosminski & Cohen by this means, so the association with "Eddie" is probably, in fact, your strongest argument.

Having said all that, I think you've rather destroyed your own case. If the police searched the archway in 1981 with metal detectors and didn't find anything, the logical conclusion is that the knife wasn't there at that time. The question I would ask is:
What made you start digging under the archway yourself? 25 cm (10 inches) is a considerable depth to get to in what was presumably a compressed earth floor. You were 13 at the time, which is an impressionable age. Is it possible your friend "Eddie" was having a joke at your expense? If, as you say, the police had been looking for a knife at a particular location, it is probably because someone told them that they would find one there. That individual is likely to have been an offender, or someone closely associated with him or her, i.e. someone still alive in the early 1980's. I suspect that the knife you found, if the circumstances are as you claim them to be, may very well have been used in a murder, or some other violent assault, but emphatically not by the person responsible for the Ripper murders of 1888.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't see a case for arguing any connection between this knife and the Whitechapel Murderer. It may be a 19th century knife - , but that doesn't mean it's been buried in the ground since the 19th century.

[Bridewell]

Hi Niko (& everyone else who's contributed)

I've found this thread strangely compelling, despite the lack of logic and leaps of faith to which it seems addicted. I'm rather puzzled at your (Niko's) obdurate insistence that the knife is that found by Coram (for which there appears to be no evidence whatsoever) & making rather less of the Kosminski connection. I seem to recall that Martin Fido's book claimed that Cohen was a "John Doe" name used by the authorities for anyone of Jewish origin whose identity was unknown, or whose name they could not pronounce. There was a connection made between Kosminski & Cohen by this means, so the association with "Eddie" is probably, in fact, your strongest argument.

Having said all that, I think you've rather destroyed your own case. If the police searched the archway in 1981 with metal detectors and didn't find anything, the logical conclusion is that the knife wasn't there at that time. The question I would ask is:
What made you start digging under the archway yourself? 25 cm (10 inches) is a considerable depth to get to in what was presumably a compressed earth floor. You were 13 at the time, which is an impressionable age. Is it possible your friend "Eddie" was having a joke at your expense? If, as you say, the police had been looking for a knife at a particular location, it is probably because someone told them that they would find one there. That individual is likely to have been an offender, or someone closely associated with him or her, i.e. someone still alive in the early 1980's. I suspect that the knife you found, if the circumstances are as you claim them to be, may very well have been used in a murder, or some other violent assault, but emphatically not by the person responsible for the Ripper murders of 1888.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't see a case for arguing any connection between this knife and the Whitechapel Murderer. It may be a 19th century knife - , but that doesn't mean it's been buried in the ground since the 19th century.