The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If one looks at the knife displayed in the sept 25th letter one can see a likeness to the one owed by Niko, it is not conclusive , but is of similar appearance.
Regards Richard.

[niko]

Hi John and thank's for your interest, it seem's to me that I'm repeating myself alot, but it dos'nt worry me as I'm not the only one who seem's to repeat themself on this forum. You ask if I collect knives "NO" but I have a few.

The string was tied around the base of the handle (near the blade end), a thin string neatly tied, wrapped once around the handle's base (near the blade), a very neat knot or knot's, with no loose end's, I supose in was secureing the cloth which was wrapped around the handle.

The knife has been for the last twenty years, how can I say "in the bottom kitchen draw", I must addmit I used the knife a few time's to chop up a chicken before frying it, my mum probably used it many year's back. In 2006 I discovered about Thomas Coram finding a knife in Whitchapel and saw a great resemblence in it's discription with the knife I found, since then I have become interested in all that is written about the Coram knife.

Whilst driving to a friend's today a thought came to mind that I have thought before. If this is the Coram knife and when I dug the knife up it still had the hankerchief that Coram mentioned was covered in blood and was wrapped around the knife that mean's "remember this is only a hypothesis" that back in the day when the police examined the knife and like you say "it was'nt important to the police in 1888 because of the condition it was in" the police did not press much attencion on it's examination, that they did'nt take the hankerchief "off" the knife, if they would of taken it of like I did and take a close look at the knife, they would of seen the three notche's the knife had engraved on the side of the wooden handle, the police would of surely looked at the Coram knife with different eye's. What I'm trying to say is that in 1888 the police did not take the hankerchief of the knife, which would of revealed the three notche's.

If anyone out there think's that I carved the notche's onto the knife,their thinking wrong, the notche's were on the knife when I dug it up or unburried like I usually say.

In the Jack the ripper case there is plenty mentioned about surgical knives, but what ve read about the Coram knife it is not discribed as a surgical knife, "I like you do'nt think the murder weapon was a surgical knife".

OK then John, I hope I've answered your question's, all the best, Agur.

niko

I was able to take a clear photo of the three notches so I decided to post it.

What reason could there be for the three notches ?

My answer is "MURDER".

How many murder's were the work of one murderer in the late 1800's ?

Excludeing Jack the Ripper!!, remember this knife was in circulation in the late 1800's early 1900's. All the best, Agur.

niko

[niko]

Hi Niko,
It wasn't important to the police in 1888 because of the condition it was in. I don't believe JTR used a surgical tool. That myth was put forth by doctors who know nothing about knives except the ones they use. My question is what have you been doing with it for twenty plus years? Did you use it for something, do you collect knives? When you say string attached was it wrapped tightly like a grip or tied like a bow? Why would the police drop it under the arch in the same condition it was found? don't you think they would've unwrapped the knife? If so would they take the trouble to wrap it back up? Lots of questions but no answers. Keep giving it a go! I like your persistence.

Hi John and thank's for your interest, it seem's to me that I'm repeating myself alot, but it dos'nt worry me as I'm not the only one who seem's to repeat themself on this forum. You ask if I collect knives "NO" but I have a few.

The string was tied around the base of the handle (near the blade end), a thin string neatly tied, wrapped once around the handle's base (near the blade), a very neat knot or knot's, with no loose end's, I supose in was secureing the cloth which was wrapped around the handle.

The knife has been for the last twenty years, how can I say "in the bottom kitchen draw", I must addmit I used the knife a few time's to chop up a chicken before frying it, my mum probably used it many year's back. In 2006 I discovered about Thomas Coram finding a knife in Whitchapel and saw a great resemblence in it's discription with the knife I found, since then I have become interested in all that is written about the Coram knife.

Whilst driving to a friend's today a thought came to mind that I have thought before. If this is the Coram knife and when I dug the knife up it still had the hankerchief that Coram mentioned was covered in blood and was wrapped around the knife that mean's "remember this is only a hypothesis" that back in the day when the police examined the knife and like you say "it was'nt important to the police in 1888 because of the condition it was in" the police did not press much attencion on it's examination, that they did'nt take the hankerchief "off" the knife, if they would of taken it of like I did and take a close look at the knife, they would of seen the three notche's the knife had engraved on the side of the wooden handle, the police would of surely looked at the Coram knife with different eye's. What I'm trying to say is that in 1888 the police did not take the hankerchief of the knife, which would of revealed the three notche's.

If anyone out there think's that I carved the notche's onto the knife,their thinking wrong, the notche's were on the knife when I dug it up or unburried like I usually say.

In the Jack the ripper case there is plenty mentioned about surgical knives, but what ve read about the Coram knife it is not discribed as a surgical knife, "I like you do'nt think the murder weapon was a surgical knife".

OK then John, I hope I've answered your question's, all the best, Agur.

niko

[John Winsett]

Hi everyone, expressing my thoughts again. I just don't understand why the knife Thomas Coram found stained with blood was of no importance to the police in 1888 or even today is of no importance to researcher's of the Whitechapel murder's.

Daily Telegraph, 4 October 1888

MUCH IMPORTANCE is attached to a blood-stained knife which was found in Whitechapel, Road as detailed in the inquest, but nothing has yet been found to throw light on how it got there nearly twenty-four hour's after the murder was committed.

It was such a weapon as might have inflicted the wound's, but whether it really is the knife which the miscreant used cannot be ascertained. If it is, the finding of it in a doorway in Whitechapel Road would point to the inference that the man lives somewhere in Whitechapel.


The evening news Monday, October 1, 1888

Early this morning a police-constable was passing on his beat in the Whitechapel-Road, when he came upon a black-handled knife, keen as a razor, and POINTED like a CARVING knife. The blade was ten inches long, about the length of weapon assumed by Dr Phillips to have been used in the Hanbury-Street murder. It is looked upon by the policeas supplying a link in the "Man from Southapton arrest"

Hi Niko,
It wasn't important to the police in 1888 because of the condition it was in. I don't believe JTR used a surgical tool. That myth was put forth by doctors who know nothing about knives except the ones they use. My question is what have you been doing with it for twenty plus years? Did you use it for something, do you collect knives? When you say string attached was it wrapped tightly like a grip or tied like a bow? Why would the police drop it under the arch in the same condition it was found? don't you think they would've unwrapped the knife? If so would they take the trouble to wrap it back up? Lots of questions but no answers. Keep giving it a go! I like your persistence.

[niko]

Hi Niko. I've published like umpteen essays covering all aspects of the Berner Street murder, so the fact that I didn't remember that it was midnight and not day time should tell you how little interest the Coram knife holds for others. Most can't even keep the doctors' comments about it separate from the evidence of Stride's murder, which causes me much frustration. You seem sincere to me, but wishful thinking aside, you shouldn't tell people you have the Coram knife as you're clearly not sure of it and have no evidence for it. And even if you did beyond doubt have the Coram knife, it cannot be supported by evidence to have been a knife used by Jack the Ripper. What you have is a cool story about finding a really old knife at a railroad track. No doubt it has a fascinating history, but you don't really know what that history is. However, if it has piqued your interest in the Ripper murders, you're more than welcome to stick around here and learn and share with the rest of us.
Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, firstly I must say thankyou for welcoming me to learn and share with you all on casebook, secondly I should say "I think it could be the Coram knife" as I have no possitive evidence proofing it is the knife, "very differcult to proof I must addmit, if not impossible. I do'nt think there is anyone who can say "oh yeah that's the knife".

The U.P.A labarotary found Human DNA (male) between the wooden handle grip's of the knife. The most logcal answer I have come up with for this is - someone useing the knife cut himself, but continued using the knife whilst bleeding, this causeing the blood to filter into the interior of the knife's handle and the blood remaining there until today.

I found the knife burried under a railway arch not a railway track, this arch was a London taxi garage, on doing local inquires regarding the arch, I discovered that many arches were stables back in the day, the first arches down the street was a Diary with cow's included. In my opinion the arch floor where I found the knife had not been disturbed in a hundred year's.

Forgive me all for my persistence, It's my character which make's me push-on when I think I'm right, although If I'm proved wrong I will proudly addmit I'm wrong, this is my character, also please forgive my spelling. Just a thought, If this is the Coram knife, I think it would change some aspect's of the Whitechapel murder's, as I personally think there is little evidence for such great interest in the Ripper case and a lot of the evidence smell's "fishy" to me e.g the victim's body's being undressed and "washed" before the Doctor's autopsy examination, that's just one of many, ok then mate thank's for your interest and all the best, Agur.

niko

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Niko. I've published like umpteen essays covering all aspects of the Berner Street murder, so the fact that I didn't remember that it was midnight and not day time should tell you how little interest the Coram knife holds for others. Most can't even keep the doctors' comments about it separate from the evidence of Stride's murder, which causes me much frustration. You seem sincere to me, but wishful thinking aside, you shouldn't tell people you have the Coram knife as you're clearly not sure of it and have no evidence for it. And even if you did beyond doubt have the Coram knife, it cannot be supported by evidence to have been a knife used by Jack the Ripper. What you have is a cool story about finding a really old knife at a railroad track. No doubt it has a fascinating history, but you don't really know what that history is. However, if it has piqued your interest in the Ripper murders, you're more than welcome to stick around here and learn and share with the rest of us.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[niko]

Clearly, the handle was wrapped as such because it's owner used it as a work tool and needed to handle it comfortably. Once the knife tip was ruined,which clearly did NOT happen by cutting women, he tossed the knife away. I'm sure it didn't take you long to sharpen the knife, but you're missing the point. Stride and Eddowes were killed by a very sharp knife. So, my question, is why would the Ripper murder, then go home and spend his time ruining his knife, only to return to a street near the Stride scene, and dispose of the knife in broad daylight. Presumably, he was wanting it found quickly and exposed as the killer's knife, so why dull the point and why not dump it at the ACTUAL murder site? The investigators at the time decided it had nothing to do with the murders and the facts haven't changed from then to now. And why on earth would you think a knife you found in some railway arch was the Coram knife?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom and thank's for your interest, let's say he did blunt the knife for some reason or an other (twisted mind) and dumped it to be found. Forgive me but I must correct you on saying "and dispose of the knife in broad day light", the knife was found on October the first on Monday morning at half past twelve (half an hour past midnight), twentyfour hour's after the double event.

PC Joseph Drage who took the knife to Leman Street police station said "I had passed the step a quater of a hour before but I don't think the knife was there then".

The reason why I think it's the coram knife which I poses, like I've mentioned before, I clearly remember unburrying the knife as if were yesterday, I pulled the knife out oif the ground it's blade was bent (turned) it had a rotten cloth resembling a hankerchief wrapped around the handle, there was also a thin neatly tied string at the base of the handle, oh yes, the blade was also blunt. This is the discription of the knife when I found it.

On looking into Jack the ripper on the internet, I read about the knife Thomas Coram found and it's discription is given as I mentioned above includeing the thin string and hankerchief wrapped around the knife's handle, the discription is given in many newspaper's at the time," to much of a coinsidence" . All the best, Agur.

niko

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom, if the knife's owner threw it away because it was blunted or pointless "why did he wrap a hankerchief around it tied with a string and covered it with blood" ?

Clearly, the handle was wrapped as such because it's owner used it as a work tool and needed to handle it comfortably. Once the knife tip was ruined,which clearly did NOT happen by cutting women, he tossed the knife away. I'm sure it didn't take you long to sharpen the knife, but you're missing the point. Stride and Eddowes were killed by a very sharp knife. So, my question, is why would the Ripper murder, then go home and spend his time ruining his knife, only to return to a street near the Stride scene, and dispose of the knife in broad daylight. Presumably, he was wanting it found quickly and exposed as the killer's knife, so why dull the point and why not dump it at the ACTUAL murder site? The investigators at the time decided it had nothing to do with the murders and the facts haven't changed from then to now. And why on earth would you think a knife you found in some railway arch was the Coram knife?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[niko]

Hi Niko. The knife isn't/wasn't regarded as important because it was discarded where it was found 24 hours AFTER the murders, and it's tip was ruined. The ruined tip is almost certainly the reason it was discarded by its owner, but the doctors then and students now don't believe that the killer(s) of Stride and Eddowes would have gone to work with a dulled knife and return to a nearby street the next day to toss it away. The Coram knife and the Ripper's knife are unreleated.

I'm not going to accuse you of lying, but if you really believe you are in possession of the Coram knife, then I'd say you've been had, much like those who've spent money on the Eddowes shawl.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, if the knife's owner threw it away because it was blunted or pointless "why did he wrap a hankerchief around it tied with a string and covered it with blood" ?

Yes when I unburried the knife the blade was "dulled", it took me less than ten minutes to regain it's sharpness with a grinding stone, "how long doe's it take to unsharpen, blunt or dull a knife ?

Tom yes I know the the knife was found twentyfour hour's after Eddowes murder, and if Iv'e been had, " I've had myself ",lol, as I myself came to the conclusion this is the Coram knife, on it's apperance when found. Nowhone has sold it to me like in the case of Eddowes shawl.

What do you say about the three notches carved onto the handle of the knife ?


I noticed the three notches after seventeen year's of the knife in my possesion. One day I decided to examine the knife with a magnifing glass, in search of halmark's or something and "bingo" I discovered the three well made notches on the side of the wooden handle.

I have many time's wondered, if this is the Coram knife, did the police who examined the knife "see the three notches" ? I reckon they did'nt, because if they did see the three notches, they would have a different opinion of the Coram knife.


It also seem's very risky depositing a large "dulled" knife wraped in a hankerchief covered in blood along the Whitechapel Road at midnight twentyfour hour's after Stride,s and Eddowes murder, too risky I would say (a bit of a twisted mind I would say), there is the possibility of been stoped and searched.

Tom I absolutly respect your belive in that this is not the Coram knife.


Question - Why and who would bury a 1800 Victorian french cook's knife in a railway arch in the East End, and bother to bend the blade, wrap a rotten cloth around the handle neatly tied with a thin string, was it for a laugh, a hoax or what ?


I spoke with Mrs Maggie Bird from the Police history musem, and she confirmed that the police "did" have a knife found in Whitechape at the time of the murder's in there custody, she did not say it was destroyed or anything like that, she simply said it disappered or went missing, like the majority of the evidence from the Jack the ripper case. All the best, Agur.

niko

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Niko. The knife isn't/wasn't regarded as important because it was discarded where it was found 24 hours AFTER the murders, and it's tip was ruined. The ruined tip is almost certainly the reason it was discarded by its owner, but the doctors then and students now don't believe that the killer(s) of Stride and Eddowes would have gone to work with a dulled knife and return to a nearby street the next day to toss it away. The Coram knife and the Ripper's knife are unreleated.

I'm not going to accuse you of lying, but if you really believe you are in possession of the Coram knife, then I'd say you've been had, much like those who've spent money on the Eddowes shawl.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[niko]

Intuition

Hi to everyone,I mean everyone. I personally think I have very good intuition, my intuition tell's me that the forum member's and visitor's think I'm "nut's" or a crank, "I can't argue with that because I am a bit of a nutter" but I can asure you I'm not "stupid". What deeply disturb's me is that you think I'm making my statemrnt up or inclusive"that I'm a liar" or pulling your leg's like one forum member mentioned.

I belive myself to be a honest and noble person, like the majority of Basque people, I am as transparent as one can be, (Basque people are known and respected for there true word and honesty). Like I've said before it deeply disturb's me on you all thinking I'm making the story up,"I do'nt think even Stephen Spilburg could make my story up".

This are my statement's.


1. The knife has been in my possesion since 1983.


2. In 1981 I witnessed the police searching the arch with metal detector's


3. Eddie was the propitor of the arch, his real name was Aaron R Cohen he was a polish jew who was born in the Whitechapel area, I also witnessed him searching the arch floor with a metal detector, On Eddie's sixteeth birthday he told a friend and I that he was going to get alot of money for something a relative of his had done in the past.


4. Seventeen year's later I discover the finding of the Coram knife in Whitechapel (on the internet) and the discription written about the knife is simular "if not identical" to the knife I found, you know the bent blade, the string tied on the handle and the hankerchief wrapped around the handle.


5. Whilst here on the forum I came to the conclusion, that the knife I poses is a french cook's Sabatier knife, which was possitvely in circulation in 1888.



I really enjoy reading the "new posts" and searching through the board's, I read the "new post's" nearly every day. I read everyone's opinion's and theories, which I highly respect "one thing we should all do".

I have tried to find out about the "link" the police had regarding the knife with "the Southampton arrest" but no luck nor more press-report's regarding the Coram knife exept it's finding. Forgive me for the long post, the following is a hypothesis that I have invented.


Let's say Martha Tabram was Jack's first victim, Elizabeth Stride was the second and Catherine Eddowes was the third, let's also say that the Coram knife was the ripper knife, also saying that the ripper carried a smaller knife as well. Let's go back to stride and on murdering this happen's (I have copied this from casebook).

Liz Stride- The bottom edge of the scarf showed sign's of being cut at the same time as the throat, following the same pattern. The cut in the scarf could obviously have been caused by the knife jerking suddenly. Why ? now here come's the hypothesis. As the incision tapered off so the killer tried again to reassert pressure, but his hand slipped down the blade of the cumbersome weapon and cut himself. He then swiftly wrapped a hankerchief around the wound but not before his blood had permeated the knife and dripped onto stride's hand.

I also read somewhere that he cut himslf with his knife and in a temper turned the edge and blunted the blade, quote- "and it's edge turned by rubbing apparently on a stone such as a kerbstone, it evidently before was a sharp knife".

OK then the murderer recover's from his wound and goes in persuit of his third victim and find's her Catherine Eddowes and murder's her, that night angry with the idea he cut himself with his own knife, he bend's the knife's blade with an angry strike against a wall or something, then blunt's the edge. He then leaves the knife along the Whitechapel Road to be found, (remember the knife was found nearly 24 hour's after the double event).


OK this show's three murder's before Coram found the knife, hmmm, could the three notches I have found on the knife's handle that I poses indicate the three murder's prior the finding of the knife. Did the Ripper engrave the three notches onto the handle of the knife with the smaller knife he carried to indicate his three murder's he had committed untill that time.


Remember the knife was analized by expert's, which found primative male DNA from inside the wooden handle grips of the knife, possibly by blood filtering into the handle. I would love to know to whom this DNA belonged, remember this is just a hypothesis I've invented, all the best. Agur.

niko

[niko]

I don't understand !!

Hi everyone, expressing my thoughts again. I just don't understand why the knife Thomas Coram found stained with blood was of no importance to the police in 1888 or even today is of no importance to researcher's of the Whitechapel murder's.

Daily Telegraph, 4 October 1888

MUCH IMPORTANCE is attached to a blood-stained knife which was found in Whitechapel, Road as detailed in the inquest, but nothing has yet been found to throw light on how it got there nearly twenty-four hour's after the murder was committed.

It was such a weapon as might have inflicted the wound's, but whether it really is the knife which the miscreant used cannot be ascertained. If it is, the finding of it in a doorway in Whitechapel Road would point to the inference that the man lives somewhere in Whitechapel.


The evening news Monday, October 1, 1888

Early this morning a police-constable was passing on his beat in the Whitechapel-Road, when he came upon a black-handled knife, keen as a razor, and POINTED like a CARVING knife. The blade was ten inches long, about the length of weapon assumed by Dr Phillips to have been used in the Hanbury-Street murder. It is looked upon by the policeas supplying a link in the "Man from Southapton arrest"

[niko]

Hi everyone, just a thought, "am I barking up the wrong tree", hhmmmmm,

No, but definitely trying to pull a few legs, I'd say.

Don.

"Don, pull the other one it's got bell's on it" only jokeing,I'v, only said what Eddie told me, I'm not lying nor making it up, and I am only expressing my thought's on the forum. I can also qarantee " I ai'nt trying to pull's nobody's leg". All this happened over twentyfive year's ago. All the best, Agur.

niko

ps

Don what would I gain by trying to pull a few leg's ?

[Supe]

Hi everyone, just a thought, "am I barking up the wrong tree", hhmmmmm,

No, but definitely trying to pull a few legs, I'd say.

Don.

[niko]

Hi everyone, just a thought, "am I barking up the wrong tree", hhmmmmm, "Nathan Kaminsky", all the best, Agur.

niko