The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[andy1867]

Thats not a knife!


THats a knife....(gotta stick up for Sheffield Cutlers)....I reckon its the one that killed Martha Tabram...only took a sec

[niko]

No luck !!

Hi everybody, still no luck with my research !! "dam".

Many people think that the Thomas Coram knife was a round ended knife and about an inch wide. (which to my believe is not so)

The following I think explain's quite well that the blade of the knife was wider than an inch and the point (tip) was rounded off.

Dr Phillps coment on the knife appeared in the Daily Telegraph, 6 Ocober -

The knife produced on the last occassion was not sharp pointed, was it ? - No, it was rounded off at the tip which was about an inch across. The blade was wider at the base. Was there anything to indicate that the cut on the neck of the deceased was made with a pointed knife ? - Nothing.

He also claim's it was a sliceing knife.
All the best.

Niko

[niko]

was the whole blade used.

Hi everyone, there are different given length's on the Coram knife (blade only), this is from memory, said in inquest and newspaper report's 9" 10" and 12" long, why did'nt the hell just measure it !!
Iwould like to make clear that the purpose of this therad is not on proveing that the Coram knife was the knife used by the Whitecapel murderer BUT to prove that the knife I have is the original knife that Thomas Coram found along the Whitechapel road nearly 24 hour's after Eddowes murder.
The following is from Eddowes inquest.

(coroner) Does the nature of the wound's lead to any conclusion as to the instrument that was used ?

(Dr Fredrick Gordon Brown) It must have been a sharp - pointed knife and I shall say at least 6in long.

Here Dr Brown clearly states "at least 6 inches long" so he presumes it could of been longer ! how longer !! if Jack only used half of the length of the blade of his knife to inflict the wound's and mutilation's were talking of a blade 12 inches long. One thing that baffles me is how did the doctor's back then calculate the length of the blade used in the murder's by only viewing the wound's and mutilation's ?

Hi Ricardnunweek, yes I did think of Barnett, but I was more going a long the lines of a Jewish fishmonger, based on what Jon pointed out about the three notches indicating a Jewish fish knife, although I still favor the notches being to mark an attack or kill performed by the knife !! all the best.

Niko

[curious4]

Wrong

Hello Nico,

Thanks. pride myself on being accurate, so this was a blow! Can only think that I read this early on and that it stuck! I have always wondered why such a fuss was made about the knife at the inquest - now I know!

Best wishes,
C4

[niko]

No lies !!

Hi Jon I would like you to belive me when I say the notches were carved, if you had the knife in your hand you could see the notches better and I am certain that you would agree with me, up close you can see were the taper mark's from the blade that produced the nothches. Remember that Ebony is a very hard wood !! in water it does not float, I doubt that it would be easy to mark the knife by stamping it on a corner of a table, don't you find it strange like I said before there are no more mark's on the handle, except for this three notches and they are together.

Hi Curious, no need to apoligise at all, yes the knife was found at 12.30am, Monday morning, you are not the only member who thought the knife was found on the 30th of September. As for the timing when it was found YES it could of been used on Stride and Eddowes but defenetly NOT on Kelly
all the best,

Niko

[curious4]

Saturday night or Sunday

Hello Nico and all,

I have to back down on this, as the inquest testimony and "Scotland Yard investigates" both give the time as Monday morning. However "Jack the Ripper an Encyclopedia" and a couple of my other books give it as early Sunday morning and state that because of this, that this could not be the murder weapon.

I always make it a point to trust contemporary sources over books, however well-researched, so will back down (I hope gracefully) and tender my apologies.

Yours blushingly,
C4

[Jon_Slider]

Hi Nico

thanks for sharing your ideas and not being offended by skepticism

here is the knife handle you posted, thanks!

the marks look pushed in to me, as if they were caused by hitting a table with the handle. They do not look cut to my eye, but, I dont have anything but this picture

http://forum.casebook.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12942&stc=1&d=1319461807

[niko]

12.30am 1st October 1888

Hi curiuos, Coram found the knife along the Whitechpel road at 12.30am on the 1st of October, nearly 24 hour's after Eddowes murder. How can we really know the size of the knife used, some say 6" other's say 8" or longer and how do we know the murderer used the whole length of the blade. All the best.

Niko

[Scott Nelson]

I believe the knife was found the next day, October 1st.

[curious4]

Coram knife

Hello Nico,

Seems to be something wrong here - Coram found the knife on 30th September at 12.30 a.m. with dried blood on it. It can be ruled out as the murder weapon for Liz and Kate, as they were both very much alive at that time. It doesn't seem to fit as a weapon for Annie Chapman or Polly Nichols either (long thin knife, similar to a slaughterman's knife - Chapman, and shortbladed, something like a cobbler's knife - Polly.

Best wishes,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi Niko,
How about Joe/Dan Barnett?, both brothers worked, or had worked at the fish market.
I am surprised you had not arrived at that conclusion, although I guess the smiley suggests you have.
Regards Richard.

[niko]

carved with a blade.

Hi Jon, the photo is not too clear, but yes your right, there not done by a file, but I can asure you there not impact mark's, to me they were done by a blade, the three notches are identical, the handle is made of ebony and those are the only mark's on the handle. I wonder if any of the ripper suspect's had any relation to a fishmonger !! all the best.

Niko.

[Jon_Slider]

> You mentioned that the knife was planted twice !!

yes, clearly I have no clue how to explain it

I look forward to any new information you may find out about your knife.

One last thing on the notches on yours. They dont look as deliberately cut as the ones on the knives I posted. I would go so far as to conjecture, based on the single picture you posted, that those 3 marks are impact marks, not cut in with a file.

If anyone has photos of any other knives, or historical description of knives with notches, I would also like to hear from you. If you post to this thread I will get email notification.

Thanks to all
Jonathan

[niko]

Martha Tabram.

Hi Jon, Martha tabram is not accepted as a ripper victim by many, here is a link about if two knives were used in her murder, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3028

You mentioned that the knife was planted twice !! I think it would have been risky buisness walking around Whitechapel with a 12" blood stained knife with a hankerchief wrapped around the handle also covered in blood or being seen depositing it on a doorstep "you are asking to be hanged" if the police caught you. Many if not all think that the knife Thomas Coram was a hoax.

Yes your right that some took their time making it dull and wrapping a cloth around the handle and securing it with a thin string AND placing human blood on it !! to my understanding the arch floor had not been modificated possibly since the arches were made, it was soil, earth, with the top layer mixed with grease and grit. Back in the year 2000 or 2005 the soil was removed and a concrete floor was laid as the arch had been refurbished.

Jon there is a thread "the knife" wich I think is on Liz stide, you can find her under "suspects" it's on the second page of her list, and yes I will keep on digging up information, in Agust I think I will find ome interesting information about the knife, all the best.

Niko

[Jon_Slider]

> In 1888 in Whitechapel the majority of the resident's were Jew's

thanks! I just learned something I did not know before, really appreciated

> Let me see if I've got this clear, three notches indicate it is a fish knife ?

yes, In an Orthodox Jewish household, there are utensils for meat which are kept separate from utensils for butter. Fish is considered not meat, so utensils for butter, are also for fish, but should not touch meat.

Therefore, a Jew could be a Fishmonger and use a thin blade for filleting, and that knife would have 3 notches. A jew could also be a butcher, of beef and mutton, but not swine. And for meat he would use a knife that had not notches.

> It has been debated on this forum if the Whitechapel murderer carried two knives

I would welcome a link to that discussion.

I don't think a butcher would walk around with his 2 knives, nor even one 12" long one. I would imagine the tools of his trade would live in his shop.

Even with the pocket knives I posted, a jew who carried even just one knife, if it was the notched one, it could be used on anything, fruit, vegetable, butter, and fish included. It would only be against Orthodox custom to use the notched knife on meat, meaning beef or mutton.

I imagine an observant Jew who keeps Kosher, would carry 2 pocket knives, one with notches for everything except meat, but again, fish is not counted as meat. That is why I call the notched knife the Fish knife, though most Jews would call it the butter or milk knife.

I am also Jewish, my family name means son of a Rabbi, but I am not a practicing Jew, and was never orthodox, though my mother was. I did not live in a Kosher home, and we did not have separate cutlery for meat and fish. I just found out about the notches in the last few months, as a side effect of my interest in pocket knives.

here btw is an article that seems plausible to me, about a Ripper suspect that used a 6", not a 12" knife.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8866083/Jack-the-Ripper-Is-this-six-inch-knife-used-by-Victorian-serial-killer.html

to explain the Coram knife, I would say it was a plant. Nothing about the story of its original find, sounds like credible evidence to me. But then I have no qualifications to justify that impression, it is simply my uneducated first reaction opinion.

As far as the knife you found, I believe it may be a plant also. Someone went to a lot of trouble to duplicate the dulling of the knife and the wrapping of the handle with cloth, and put it in a place that mirrors the Ripper crime area.

I don't see how the knife you found could possibly have remained in that area, considering the accounts of it being taken to the constabulary. But again, Im just expressing an opinion.

Thanks for sharing your info about notched knives, and good fortune determining any more info about the knife you found.