The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[niko]

12" inch blade

Hi Jon, and thank's for the link, I do not know of any other link's about three notches. I belive my knife is a Sabatier "Garanti" french chef's knife with a 12 inch blade, what I've read about this knife is that it was a very good knife and used by different tradesmen. When I said it was a fish knife I was only jokeing !! I have always thought it was a chopping knife BUT after seeing the two photo's you posted it look's more like a sliceing knife, it's blade is very long and thin.

In 1888 in Whitechapel the majority of the resident's were Jew's, (If this is the knife that Coram found) when the police had this knife in there custody I wonder if they saw the three notches, I also wonder if the police knew about the three notches on knives being related to Jewish custom or tradition ?? to tell you the truth you don't have to look hard to see the three notches on the knife. Let me see if I've got this clear, three notches indicate it is a fish knife ? Very interesting point you made a bout the Jew carried two knives, one for meat and another for fish !! It has been debated on this forum if the Whitechapel murderer carried two knives, thankyou Jon for shareing your information on three notches carved on knives on this thread, all the best.

Niko

[Jon_Slider]

Hi Nico

no worries on the string and cloth, was not up to speed, I read later that the cloth you found was rotten

anyway, I did read a lot more of your posts and until then was about to ask you why you thought it was a fish knife you found.. though now I read you think its a chefs knife

I like pictures, so, trying to compare..

here is a Sabatier site with both Chef knives and Fish knives

http://thebestthings.com/knives/sabatier_nogent.htm

Do you think your knife blade shape is more of a chopper or slicer?



Chopper, 12" Chef model


10"Slicer model 6733


the slicer is more of a fish knife, which would tie in with the 3 notches

[niko]

only three notches

Jon I wonder why you are interested in the hankerchief and string ? the string was in good condition but the cloth(hankrechief)was rotten but I threw them both in the bin, I thought that the three notches on the knife could represent three kill's perpertrated with the knife, but who know's maybe it was only for fish !! Jon there is a good photo of the knife on page 10, posst 98. There are no more marking's on the knife only the three notches.

Nikoi

[Jon_Slider]

Thank you very much for pointing me to your photos nico.

That is a nice old knife. Could you tell me if there are any other groups of 3 notches on the rest of the handle?

any other pics of the handle, both sides, would be appreciated, also of the handkerchief and string..

I will take some time to read through your posts before asking too many more favors

thank you!

[niko]

Three notches.

Hi Jon and welcome to casebook. I find very interesting your point of view on a knife haveing three notches to determind if it is either for meat or fish. Jon there is a photo of the notches on the knife I have on page 10, post number 93 of this thread, by the way the knife I think was in circulation in the late 1800's, all the best.

Niko

[Jon_Slider]

Knives with 3 notches, Jewish Fish Knives

Hello, first post. I found this thread while searching the net for knives with 3 notches.

Im posting to request any photographs you may have of knives with 3 notches, including the one mentioned in your discussion about the knife found by Thomas Coram. Can you link me to a picture of that knife please:?

Here is some background on notched knives that I am looking to learn more about.

Knives with 3 notches, Jewish Fish Knives

Excerpt from "Synagoga Judaica" by Buxtorf

https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/corre/www/buxdorf/chp26.html

" They mark the milk vessels with three special signs; they cut three notches in the wood, because the aforementioned verse occurs three times in the Law of Moses"....."Every Jew always carries two knives, one for meat, and one for cheese and fish. The latter is also marked with three notches..."

Below are two examples of knives with 3 notches. They actually have 3 sets of 3 notches. 2 sets of three on the Mark side of the knife, and one set of 3 on the pile side.

The first knife was made in Sheffield around 1891. The Second knife was made in Connecticut also around 1891, by cutlers originally from Sheffield. There was a Jewish population in Connecticut during that time, that continues to this day.

I hypothesize that some Connecticut Jews whose family originally lived in Northern Europe, were following the tradition described by Buxtorf, in the link above. That would suggest that knives with 3 notches would be owned by Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews. I am not suggesting that the Sheffield cutlers who made the knives, put the marks on them. I believe it was done by individuals who owned the knives.

This is not intended to be a criticism of any religion, I am only pointing out a cultural custom among Jews, to distinguish food implements that are used for meat, separately from those used on butter and fish. fwiw, The Buxtorf writing is hosted on a site owned by a Sephardic Jew that lives in America. I emailed asking if he had ever seen knives with 3 notches, or knew anything about the practice. He did not, nor has any other Jewish historian I have contacted so far.

If you have any other photos of knives with 3 notches, please share.

Thank You, and if this post is not appropriate to this site, and you can suggest any other good places to ask about notched knives, I would welcome your feedback.

3 marks on handle near pivot and 3 marks on the shield


3 marks on pile side head cap


3 Marks on Shield side scale, spring side near pivot end, and 3 marks on Shield side scale, blade side, near knife bare head. Plus one mark on Mark side center below shield, relevance unknown.




3 marks on pile side handle scale near bare head end.

[niko]

Hi Niko,

If it was buried for 'safe-keeping', wouldn't someone have retrieved it at some stage? I can agree with you as far as its having been used to commit a crime of violence is concerned - why else would someone bury a kitchen knife under railway arches? I think, in all the circumstances you describe, that the most likely scenario is that someone had admitted to the police burying a weapon where you later found it, and that this is the item the police were looking for. Given the time interval between the Late Victorian Period and the discovery of the knife, I think it's a huge leap of logic to conclude that your knife was involved in any 19th century crime.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell, someone did go to retrieve the knife !!.... the old bill and Eddie !! that's my opinion !!

The day after the police searched the arch I went to visit Eddie to find out what the police were doing in his arch the day before, (what were they searching for) I asked him what were the police doing snooping around in his arch, he replied somthing like " I don't know nothing" he did not say one word about the old bill searching the arch of which he was the propietor.

I came to the conclusion that he was lieing to me and that he knew alot more than he was saying, for example - how did the old bill open the arch gates which were secured with a thick chain and massive padlock. Common sense tells me that Eddie gave the old bill the padlock key and more important Eddie gave the police permission to search the arch, the police most likeky had a warrent, but I reckon they asked Eddie for permission first.

Bridewell you say that someone could of admitted to a crime and thats why the police were searching Eddies arch, "could be but I don't think so" I think that the person or persons who used this knife in a crime was well dead in 1983. I believe that the knife had remained buried for the last two world war's under the railway arch.

All this about the arch being searched happened around the time when Eddie on his 60th birthday inherited a victorian house in Bow. One hypothsis is that when Eddie inhereted the "WILL" giving him the Victorian house he also recieved information regarding the buried "Garanti, Sabatier French chefs knife".

I'm sure Eddie knew somthing about the knife, Remeber some friends and I visited Eddies new Victorian house on his 60th birthday, I witnessed in one of the bedrooms of the house the following - curtains hanging at the windows, the double bed was undone as if someone had slept in it the night before, also a wardrobe and on one wall an old fireplace, "here comes the strange bit". The old fireplace had been dismantled brick by brick, on one side of the fireplace there was a neatly piled stack of brick's, today it gives me the impression that someone had been searching the fireplace for somthing. AND THIS PERSON WAS EDDIE.

Hi Moonbegger, I hope they don't ban me from the boards for writing what names were used for the police when I was a youngster - old bill, the plod, kossers, bill and ben, the nick, I ain't gonna say any more coz I don't wanna get banned,lol, all the best, agur.

Niko.

[Bridewell]

Hello Niko ,
I'm Glad you cleared that up for me
And i'm pretty sure " old Bill " is not a derogatory term for the police .. i think its just Cockney rhyming slang from back in the day , somewhere along the lines of Robert Peel , the peelers , Rob Peel = Old Bill , The same as the Sweeney , Sweeney Todd = Flying squad ,,

cheers
moonbegger

Hi MB,

There are a few possible origins, some of them not complimentary. The following is from the Met's own website.

http://www.met.police.uk/history/oldbill.htm

Regards, Bridewell.

[moonbegger]

Hello Niko ,
I'm Glad you cleared that up for me
And i'm pretty sure " old Bill " is not a derogatory term for the police .. i think its just Cockney rhyming slang from back in the day , somewhere along the lines of Robert Peel , the peelers , Rob Peel = Old Bill , The same as the Sweeney , Sweeney Todd = Flying squad ,,

cheers
moonbegger

"The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree"

[Bridewell]

I am sure that the knife was buried for safe keeping and not burried to be hidden from the human eye for ever.

Hi Niko,

If it was buried for 'safe-keeping', wouldn't someone have retrieved it at some stage? I can agree with you as far as its having been used to commit a crime of violence is concerned - why else would someone bury a kitchen knife under railway arches? I think, in all the circumstances you describe, that the most likely scenario is that someone had admitted to the police burying a weapon where you later found it, and that this is the item the police were looking for. Given the time interval between the Late Victorian Period and the discovery of the knife, I think it's a huge leap of logic to conclude that your knife was involved in any 19th century crime.

Regards, Bridewell.

[niko]

Hi Niko ..
The thing is Niko , my old Granddad owned an old pirate's musket dating back to the 17th century .. and he always said that if anyone tried to break in to his house , He would blow their head clean of their shoulders . And i'm sure he would have , but fortunately enough he never had to . But if he did , i'm pretty sure the old bill wouldn't be out searching for captain Kidd or Blackbeard .. I'm sure your Knife is as old as you say it is , but it doesn't necessarily follow that it was used in anger the same year or even century that it was made . i would love you to prove all the doubters on here wrong , but i'm not gonna hold my breath best of luck to ya .

moonbegger.

"The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree"

Hi Moonbegger, ok I understand what your getting at about your grandad's musket. Let's imagine that Jack comitted the murder's with a musket and after the double event a smoking musket was found with a pair of nickers wrapped around the barrel and secured with a thin string, a hundred year's later a musket is found burried in a railway arch in the area of the murder's, with something resembling a pair of nickers wrapped around the barrel and secured with a thin string and the musket fits the describtion of the musket found a hundred year's ago !! what would you think ?

Firstly I am sure if someone in the East End wanted to get rid of a weapon used in a murder or in an agresion they would not doubt in throwing it into the river Thames, this way the murderer would be safe from finger print's then and DNA nowadays.

Secondly, I'm sure the knife was burried for safe keeping and not to be hidden frm the old bill (I have been a bit wiery on using the term "old bill" as I think theres a lot of coppers on the boards and did'nt want to sound offensive,lol). Remember when I found the knife it was covered in a thick black crust which was about 3mm thick. The scientist who examined the knife said he found a hell of alot of grease in the sample he tested, I told him about the thick black crust and he said that what I described to him could of been thick grease. The scientist suggested that maybe it had been covered in thick grease before it was burried, reason being to protect it from the natural elements.

I am sure that the knife was burried for safe keeping and not burried to be hidden from the human eye for ever. MB thanks a million for holding your breath, BUT, MB please, please, breath as I would be very sad if you suffercated, that would be my fault and I could'nt handle that,lol, all the best, agur.

Niko.

[moonbegger]

Hi Niko ..
The thing is Niko , my old Granddad owned an old pirate's musket dating back to the 17th century .. and he always said that if anyone tried to break in to his house , He would blow their head clean of their shoulders . And i'm sure he would have , but fortunately enough he never had to . But if he did , i'm pretty sure the old bill wouldn't be out searching for captain Kidd or Blackbeard .. I'm sure your Knife is as old as you say it is , but it doesn't necessarily follow that it was used in anger the same year or even century that it was made . i would love you to prove all the doubters on here wrong , but i'm not gonna hold my breath best of luck to ya .

moonbegger.

"The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree"

[niko]

[QUOTE=moonbegger;221275]Hello Niko ,
Greetings from a fellow East Ender . The thing about this whole Knife malarkey is that there really is no evidence to trace it back to any further than when you first unearthed it .. apart from maybe getting it roughly dated , which in its self would prove nothing apart from the fact that it is an old knife . The very fact that it was buried and had possible trace blood on it , tells me that it was possibly used to cause someone an injury .. Not necessarily Death , and not necessarily back in 1888 . Growing up in shoreditch mid 60's .. End of the Kray era , Big Knife's were king , and the bigger the knife , the bigger the respect . My guess is the Knife you have was used in a fight , then buried out of fear of arrest .. baring in mind back in 1888 there would have been no real need to bury a knife because there was no fingerprinting technology to link it to anyone anyway .
best of luck with it all the same .


Halo mate, and a belated welcome to the boards, I grew up in the Watney Street area (Shadwell) your right about big knives, the bigger the better I supose, I am very sad to say that I have known of stabbing's and murder's on the manor that I lived, BUT I'm sure this blade was'nt used by villan's in the 60's, why do I say this, because the knife is a " French Garanti, Sabatier chef's knife" in circulation in the late 1800's early 1900's (definetly forged before 1902). I read all that I could find on the web about this model of knife.

Now listen to this !! If the blade of the knife I have had a halmark on it that means it was forged after 1902 and if the blade had no halmark on it that means the knife was forged prior to 1902 more or less. All this about the company halmark is due to some intelctual property right's or something (can't remember of hand exactly).

MB I think it was burried because it was the knife that Coram found in 1888 and who burried it under the arch (which since as far back as 1884 has alway's had some sort of trade ocupying the metioned railway arch) was the person who took it from police custody or a later relative of his burried it there, it's just my opinion.

MB this blade is dodgy and I am sure at least three murder's have been commited with it, one murder for each notch carved on the knife's handle. Another thing mate is I lived in the Street where I dug-out the knife, previously searched with meta-detectors. Last year a nieghbour of mine was imprioned for murder and twenty four hour's after he commited the horific crime I knew about it, and I live oversea, what I'm trying to say with this is, if something dodgy happened in my Street when the police searched the arch with metal detectors do you think that I would not know something about it ? I'm sure that the whole fudging Street would know about it.

There is no doubt that the knife I have existed in 1888, ok mate, all the best, agur.

Niko.

[niko]

Hello niko,

I've read this thread on occasion and I'm still not sure why you think this could be Coram's knife. It may or may not be very similar to it, and if there was someone in London hiding these knives complete with handkerchiefs tied around them, I'm sure there was a fascinating story behind it. But didn't Coram's knife end up with the police? I don't know how they stored evidence back then, but surely not by burying it under railway arches - unless your last bit is suggesting that Warren as an archaeologist would actually do just that. Did I miss your theory on how it got there?

Hi Rixa, firstly you haven't missed nothing, and I don't think that Warren had nothing to do with burying the knife under the arch, at least that's what I think!!
YES the knife was found with a hankerchief wrapped around the handle and secured with a thin string in 1888.

YES the knife had been stored by the police, that's at least what Julia Hoffbrand the London and Dockland's musem currator and Maggie Bird from the police history musem both told me by telephone, they both also said it went "MISSING" and that it was probably a souvenir hunter that took it from where it was stored !! (pound to a penny a copper nicked it).

Why do I think this is the Coram knife, briefly..........

A) Eddie told me his real name was Aaron Cohen and that his surname had been changed from Lominsky or Kasminsky or something like that to Cohen for some reason or other.

B) The police searched an empty arch with metal detectors where Eddie was the propitor.

C) A few day's after the polce searched the arch with metal detector's, Eddie bought himself a metal detector wich I saw him search the arch floor with it.
(what the f--k was the police and Eddie searching for if it was'nt the knife).

D) Eddie told me when he was drunk that he was going to get alot of money for something a relative of his had done in the past, (what did Eddies relative do ? was his relative "Jack the Ripper" or was his relative the person who took the knife from police custody and burried it in the arch floor).

E) What I understand from the information given in the 1888 newspaper's and inquest report's is that the Coram knife was a twelve inch long bladed knife( twelve inch the blade alone) sort of butcher's carving knife with a black wooden handle rivited in three places and BLUNT, with a hankerchief wrapped around the handle secured with a thin string, "AND THIS FITS THE DISCRIPTION OF THE KNIFE THAT i FOUND exept the hankerchief was a rotten cloth wich could of perfectly been a hankerchief back in the day.

All that I know I have written it on the board's, I am in The Basque Country and Mick my 70 year old stepfarther is in London and his disabled, both of us make our research team,lol.

To tell you the truth I thought that I was going to recive more help or knowledge about the Coram Knife on this forum than I have recieved "no problem".

In 2006 was when I discovered that my Knife could be the Coram knife and some six month's later I discovered the three notches carved onto the side of the wooden handle whilst searching for halmark's on the knife. I am far from "throwing in the towel", I am presently researching a new angle which I truely hope will lead me somewhere, all the best, agur.

Niko.

[moonbegger]

Hello Niko ,
Greetings from a fellow East Ender . The thing about this whole Knife malarkey is that there really is no evidence to trace it back to any further than when you first unearthed it .. apart from maybe getting it roughly dated , which in its self would prove nothing apart from the fact that it is an old knife . The very fact that it was buried and had possible trace blood on it , tells me that it was possibly used to cause someone an injury .. Not necessarily Death , and not necessarily back in 1888 . Growing up in shoreditch mid 60's .. End of the Kray era , Big Knife's were king , and the bigger the knife , the bigger the respect . My guess is the Knife you have was used in a fight , then buried out of fear of arrest .. baring in mind back in 1888 there would have been no real need to bury a knife because there was no fingerprinting technology to link it to anyone anyway .
best of luck with it all the same .


cheers .
moonbegger .

"The Tree is in my garden ... Born and raised in whitechapel , if i wanna pick apples of my tree i will , and they wont hurt me if they do fall on my head .. go pick apples off your own tree"