What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[lynn cates]

good post

Hello Gwyneth.

"I think the chances are that all of the victims would try to beg, borrow or steal money before resorting to prostitution."

A most intelligent observation. Of course, it is difficult not to see Polly in that light. I am thinking of some of her hints.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no connection

Hello CD.

"An even simpler explanation is that they were all killed before any type of sexual activity took place."

Happy with this--well, except Polly. Are we agreeing?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Polly

Hello (again) CD.

"My point was that they may have washed after previous customers and prior to encountering their killer and that they were killed before any sexual activity took place with their killer."

No doubt true of Polly.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Bedlam

Hello David. Thanks.

"you're a negationist using the methods of negationism."

Yawn.

"You often avoid questions you're asked (latest example, Jon Guy's) . . ."

I answered that. Jon said as much. I DO get tired, however, of going over old material.

". . . or answer them flippantly."

Never a serious one.

"You focus on minor détails, such as Kate's pockets, the fact that she would have been thirsty and hungry (???), etc."

Not minor from where I sit.

"And when you're kind enough to expose a whole scenario, the result is unbelievable. . .

But Liz being accosted by BSM, PM chasing IS, then PM returning to Liz--in suspended animation--to console her, then kill her is quite believable?

"I'm not being nasty, that's just what you are doing."

Actually, you are. You focus on posters and wish not to discuss forensics because it shows all the fatal flaws in a position that died on the vine ages ago.

As Dickens had Scrooge say, "I'll retire to bedlam."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Keep in mind that all of these women seemed to have problems with alcohol. If they were lucky enough to find a cleaning or laundry job it might take several hours before they could enjoy the fruits of their labor as opposed to dabbling in prostitution which would have a much quicker pay off. I'm not saying that they did this as as a regular practice but it is something that we need to take into consideration.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Fun, while it lasted.

Hello CD.

"Is it being argued that since there were no signs of connection found that these women were not engaged in prostitution?"

Not necessarily. On the other hand, if someone claims to be a victim of physical domestic violence, a black eye, say, would go a LONG way to corroborating the claim.

"And therefore, if they were not engaged in prostitution, they were not Ripper victims?"

Don't know. Of course, "Ripper" talk is a non-starter for me.

"If that is the argument,then it would appear that argument is easily disproved, oral sex, washing etc."

And don't forget invisible semen. Think of it like invisible strangulation marks.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

jolly bonnet

Hello Gwyneth.

"I was talking about Polly Nichols' comment that she had had her doss money three times that night - making the point that she didn't necessarily prostitute herself to get it then. As she had subsequently spent it all on drink, she probably was trying to earn it in the only way left open to her. Doubtless still hoping her new bonnet would render her irresistible."

There you go again, making sense.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

disposed

Hello Trevor.

"The point is that no matter what they were doing or where they were going, or what time it was. If the opportunity presented itself for these women to prostitute themselves then they would. End of argument."

Hardly begun. They would, PROVIDED they were so disposed in the first place.

Um, these women? Which?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

How competent were doctors in 1888 in detecting the presence of semen? I am guessing that tests could be done but I have no idea as to their accuracy.

c.d.

[DVV]

Hello David.

"And when you're kind enough to expose a whole scenario, the result is unbelievable. . .

But Liz being accosted by BSM, PM chasing IS, then PM returning to Liz--in suspended animation--to console her, then kill her is quite believable?

LC

You see, I'm right.

What does your reply mean exactly ?

That your scenario has the right to be unbelievable ?

Cheers

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor.

"The point is that no matter what they were doing or where they were going, or what time it was. If the opportunity presented itself for these women to prostitute themselves then they would. End of argument."

Hardly begun. They would, PROVIDED they were so disposed in the first place.

Um, these women? Which?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
As to prostituting themselves and the question were they or weren't they

The facts speak for themselves as to their actions

Tabram - quiet secluded staircase
Chapman- quiet secluded back yard
Eddowes-quiet darkest part of Square
Kelly- known prositute secluded confines of her room

They all didn't go to these locations with a man to talk about the weather. The facts answer all the questions

[RivkahChaya]

Hello (again) CD.

"My point was that they may have washed after previous customers and prior to encountering their killer and that they were killed before any sexual activity took place with their killer."

No doubt true of Polly.

Cheers.
LC

Washing externally doesn't get rid of internal semen.

Hello Gwyneth.

"I was talking about Polly Nichols' comment that she had had her doss money three times that night - making the point that she didn't necessarily prostitute herself to get it then. As she had subsequently spent it all on drink, she probably was trying to earn it in the only way left open to her. Doubtless still hoping her new bonnet would render her irresistible."

There you go again, making sense.

Cheers.
LC

I wonder whether the intention of the bonnet wasn't so much to render her irresistible, as noticeable. Unless she had a regular client with a hat fetish, who paid extra if she stripped down to everything except the hat, I find it hard to believe she was naive enough to think that hats were that magical. On the other hand, pros do dress in ways that advertise what they are doing.

I've been thinking about the odd "prostitution was illegal indoors" law.

That does sound silly on the face, but it may have had to do with the realities of enforcement. An "indoor" law effectively bans brothels, which is where you are going to have more trouble catching people in the act, and where you are also going to have more third parties profiting from exploiting other people. If people are caught having sex outside, they are going to deny that it is prostitution, and there isn't much way to prove otherwise; however, having sex outdoors is probably illegal under other laws, like exposure ("flashing"), or other laws against lewd conduct in public.

[lynn cates]

knew their business

Hello CD. Thanks for a good question.

"How competent were doctors in 1888 in detecting the presence of semen? I am guessing that tests could be done but I have no idea as to their accuracy."

Since you confess to guessing, permit me as well. I presume they knew their business.

If you look over the inquest material (probably for the hundredth time) you may find, as I did, that checking thighs for secretions was SOP. Of course, some ladies used lodginghouses where couples could sleep (like Polly's new location) and REAL connection likely occurred there.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello David. Thanks.

"You see, I'm right."

Is that what ripper studies means to you--being right? Frankly, I don't care a feather or a fig about who's right and who's wrong. I want a SOLUTION.

If you have one, I'm delighted to hear; if you have a project, delighted to help. But let's not start down THIS path.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Sex--not what it's cracked up to be.

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"The facts speak for themselves as to their actions:

Tabram - quiet secluded staircase
Chapman- quiet secluded back yard
Eddowes-quiet darkest part of Square
Kelly- known prositute secluded confines of her room."

1. Regarding Tabram, I have almost no concern. I should be astounded if she were not soliciting. Never questioned it. So?

2. I take it that Chapman solicited for an hour or so and gave up. She likely went to sleep at #29 having earned no doss money. Think her assailant may have been sleeping there too. Recall that a month before, a foreign sounding man had been run off? He had been waiting for the market to open.

3. People do things in the dark besides have sex. (When you become old like me, you'll see what I mean. heh-heh)

4. Have no idea what "MJK" was doing. Sex? Possibly. I'll make a deal. You find out whom she was, I'll speculate on what she was about.

Cheers.
LC